How Do I Help My Kid Develop a Work Ethic?

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Reena Ninan:
Episode 204, How Do I Help My Kid Develop a Work Ethic?
We’re talking about work ethics today, which I’m very excited about because I feel like I did it all wrong, Lisa, and you know working very closely with me. I am the creative and you and business development head shair is always on me to like, okay, did you do this? Did you do this? Did you do this? So yeah.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I’m going to stop you right there. Reena. You are a total workhorse. A total workhorse.

Reena Ninan:
Thank you. It doesn’t feel that way.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I will though. I’ll give you, organization is not your,

Reena Ninan:
It’s not my thing.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Strong suit. It’s not your strongest suit. But actually right out of the gate, let’s make a distinction between capacity for work, willingness to work, drive to work, and being organized. Those are two different things and you’re plenty organized as well.

Reena Ninan:
I just wish I had learned early on these things, but I also will tell you, and maybe it’s just me making up for my inabilities here, that sometimes that not being organized is what helps me be more creative. I don’t feel the pressure of being stuck in monotony of it all. Right? Yeah, no.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Whereas I can be kind of rigid and organization is my strong suit, but I know it undermines sometimes my inventiveness. So minds are amazing and do all sorts of things and have all sorts of strengths and capacities.

Reena Ninan:
But I think this work ethic thing is something we all hope and aspire to for our kids that they’ll develop. I know in last week’s episode you were talking about when we were talking about the drug use and substance abuse, you said something that really still resonates with me this week is will this matter at 30? And I do feel like work ethic and kind of having some sort of semblance of understanding how to do this will matter at 30.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yep. Kids need a work ethic.

Reena Ninan:
They do.
I’m going to read you the letter.
Hi Dr. Lisa.
I’m writing with a question regarding my 11-year-old son. He’s very smart, does well in school, but school tends to be very easy for him. My concern is that he really hates to do any work or chores around the house and also doesn’t like to do extra school projects that are not as easy for him. We live on a big piece of property with a lot of outdoor chores, a big garden, chickens, et cetera. He sees us working all the time either doing outside chores or managing normal household chores. He loves to read and loves to be on electronics. When we require him to help, he groans and complains and makes it generally miserable for everybody. We worry about his work ethic in general and also get frustrated when he sees everyone around him working and doesn’t pitch in. We want him to know the satisfaction of doing a job well. But so far this hasn’t clicked. My question is, is this a developmental stage and we just need to be patient or is it possible to motivate him to be a good worker and take initiative?
First off, can I just say the kid’s 11?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah.

Reena Ninan:
But I have felt this way at 11. I felt what this parent is saying, are we wrong to feel like they should be doing more and wanting to do more?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
You’re half right. I don’t think we’re wrong to feel like they should be doing more. I don’t think we can make them want to do it. I think that it’s doing it or doing it with a smile. They don’t need to do it with a smile.

Reena Ninan:
But where do you begin on something like this, Lisa, where it’s like you know them having some sort of work. I guess how do you even get kids to have a work ethic?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
When kids have a work ethic, why do they have a work ethic? We could construct it that way. Alright, so there’s a few different reasons. One is there’s some kids who really, really care about approval from adults or not having the adults be annoyed with them and it’s either just how they’re wired or how they’re raised that this is somehow a very high priority When we look at the research, it can be often more girls than boys who are worried about adult approval. And so sometimes kids have a work ethic because they want the adults to be happy with them. This kid doesn’t seem to mind that his parents are annoyed with him. Another thing that brings about a work ethic is that you’re working on something you care about. It is inherently interesting. It’s up your alley. Then it’s easy to work well and to work hard because you’re invested in it. We call this intrinsic motivation. You do it for the sake of the thing. That’s another thing that brings around a work ethic. This kid isn’t really into the things his folks want him to do. He’d much rather read and play video games. My gosh. Who wouldn’t?

Reena Ninan:
You feel like that’s every kid in the world. There’s no intrinsic, what is it? Intrinsic.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Intrinsic versus extrinsic.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah. I feel like there’s no intrinsic in teenage years. None. It doesn’t exist unless it’s sports or something that’s not work.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Right? Or that’s actually important. So the kid likes to read, he likes to read. He has an intrinsic motivation to read. There are plenty of families who are like, I wish my kid had an intrinsic motivation to read. Right? So he just doesn’t have an intrinsic motivation to do the things that they want him to do.
Where does intrinsic motivation come from? Right? That’s a key question and what we know is first of all, it comes from choice. When kids feel they can choose among things, their intrinsic motivation is higher and second it just comes from interest. So it’s not rare at all, Reena, for me to care for a kid who basically slogs through school, parents feel like they’ve got their foot on the kid’s neck and then 11th grade they take a class that just lights ’em up and suddenly they’re working or suddenly they’re interested and suddenly they can put their back into it. It’s a chemistry problem. The kid has to come up against something that feels like the right fit.

Reena Ninan:
So what do you do when you’ve got a kid like this who’s grumpy about doing chores, but come on, they need to do some responsibility at 11, you are capable of doing some things around the house. How do you get them if they can’t be happy about it? I just want you to do it on your own without me having to nag about it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Again, you’re half there, Reena.

Reena Ninan:
That’s my problem in life.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
No, no no.
Well, we’re all struggling, so you probably are going to have to do some nagging.
The kid doesn’t want to do it, it needs to be done, but they really can be grumpy if they want to. They can’t be jerks, they can’t act like jerks. They can’t say nasty things. But part of parenting is not always getting along with our kids and part of parenting is asking our kids to do things they don’t want to do and requiring them to do it anyway and withstanding the fact that they’re going to be annoyed with us about it. Is that fun? No. Is it so much more fun when you and your kid are getting along and having a great time? Absolutely.
You know, Reena, I talk all the time about warmth and structure. If you’re going to do any, those are the things to focus on. Well, so in all the research on this, we’ve also looked at like, okay, so if warmth and structure are the number one, you get the best outcomes in families when there’s lots of warmth and lots of structure, lots of love and liking and there’s lots of predictability and rules and low chaos, they’re like, okay, if families can’t do both of those things, what’s the next configuration that gets not quite as good outcomes but pretty good outcomes.
Reena, it’s structure. It’s not the families who are going with warmth as the number one.

Reena Ninan:
And when you say structure, meaning having a system in place of what to expect, you are expected to at 6:00 PM before you go to soccer practice to have swept the kitchen floor.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Absolutely right. That there’s rules and expectations and predictability and I want all homes to have warmth. But when we have studied this and we’ve studied this 14 ways, the families that have structure but not warmth, their kids do okay. Their kids do okay and they do better than families where they have warmth but not structure. It’s really okay for your kid to be annoyed with you if what you are doing is saying, we have high expectations and we are going to hold you to them and what we’re asking is fair and you can be as grumpy as you want to be.

Reena Ninan:
So I want to go back to this letter that I’m looking at and the parent says that he’s a good kid, he’s naturally smart, but he doesn’t love to go above and beyond on school projects that are hard for him. Is there anything that can be done when your kid just is not motivated to do above and beyond or even just the bare minimum sometimes?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Right? It’s hard. There are lots of kids who are like, I didn’t choose this class. I don’t want to do the work. I don’t like the teacher.
Why should I be bringing my A game? We should have some heading for this, Reena, like less fun parts of parenting. This is under less fun parts of parenting your kid. What you said about things that matter when you’re 30, knowing how to work, knowing how to do work. We don’t feel like knowing how to bring muscle to something that is not inherently appealing is a critical life skill. Also, kids need good habits around how to do work and where to do work and when to do work. So some of the less pleasant aspects of parenting can sometimes crop up right around the grade this kid is in, you know fifth, sixth grade where maybe they have a little homework and they don’t really like it and they can kind of phone it in and they can kind of get away with it. I would make the case that this is a good time to say even if the work feels easy now, it won’t always be.
So let’s set up a place where you do your homework and you time where you do your homework so you get in the habit of having a place and a time because when the work gets harder you’re going to want that to be more automatic. So I would push on that. Then if the kid just dashes it off, does a lousy job and again they’re going to be like, it’s not following me anywhere. Doesn’t really matter. You can say, I don’t care. I want you to do a decent job of this. It doesn’t have to be polished to a high shine, but I want you to start to learn what it feels like to do good work. We’re going to require this so that you develop that capacity, you develop that habit for when the work gets harder, practice on the easy stuff, you’re going to bring it to the harder stuff. This will also probably annoy your child, but if you care about school and that’s something that matters to you as a family, they are going to need, and I use the expression foot on the neck sometimes in some families that is what middle school looks like.

Reena Ninan:
How do you get kids to feel that sense of motivation when you accomplish something, you feel good about it. So you put in the work. A lot of times kids just don’t care about feeling good or getting that satisfaction of doing a job. So to motivate them that when you accomplish this, you’re going to do a great job, you’re going to feel good. It doesn’t cut it for kids these days I feel.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah, it may not.
They may be like, I don’t really care about how well I clean that chicken coop.
It’s not where my interests lie. And again, they did not choose it. I think we have to remember, and I think about this a lot, Reena, we love our jobs, but there is still plenty of days when we’re like, oh, I’d really rather read and play video games. Right?

Reena Ninan:
Totally.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And this is us. We chose our jobs, we have colleagues we enjoy doing our job with. We get paid to do our job and even still we’re like, oh, but I stay in bed and read. So I think we got to summon some empathy for this kid who’s like, I didn’t ask for this. I don’t want to do it. Why would I be into it? Okay, so then sometimes you have to put a little bit of juice behind it, give them some skin in the game.
So this is where you say playing video games hinges on you cleaning the chicken coop. So you may not feel good about the chicken coop, but you’re going to feel good about the fact that you get to play your video games and you’ve done what I’ve asked. It comes to the question of paying for chores. There are a lot of debates about this, about whether one should or should not pay for chores, but you could also, if this is what’s going to motivate your kid, you could say, I know you want those new sneakers, your allowance hinges on you doing the chicken coop. So you may not feel good about the chicken coop, but you’re going to feel good about earning the money for the new sneakers. It is okay to link up privileges and responsibilities as early in development as you want to. So this kid is a member of an organization.
That organization is the family. The family is counting on him. He has responsibilities as part of that. But meeting those responsibilities comes with some privileges and then families can decide what kinds of privileges those are going to be.

Reena Ninan:
So there’s something motivating them.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Ya, but it’s not the job, it’s the,

Reena Ninan:
It’s not the job, it’s the reward.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It’s the reward. And this is extrinsic motivation, right? So when we talk about intrinsic versus extrinsic, intrinsic is I do it because, oh my gosh, I’m so drawn to it and I love it and I don’t even have to try to feel motivated. Extrinsic is I do it for a reward or praise or because I’m going to get in trouble if I don’t do it. Extrinsic is fine, Reena, it’s part of how the world turns, right? Is it you’re not always into it. I hear this sometimes in schools where there’s such a privileging of intrinsic motivation. Will the good kids have it? I’m like, yeah, sometimes some days. But there’s a lot of kids who they’re doing it because they want the adult to like them because they don’t want to be in trouble at home. And that’s sometimes how things get done too.

Reena Ninan:
What is developmentally correct? Is this just a developmental phase? Will we grow out of it? Is this the teenage years? What should we expect when it comes to chores and pushing your kids to feel like they’re an active member and pitching in?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Nothing about this letter strikes me is odd developmentally.
I bet you feel the same way, right?

Reena Ninan:
Yeah, totally.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah. I mean he’s a sixth grader, likely he’s not going to want to do these things and in fact he’d just really rather read. I mean in many ways this is kind of a lovely picture.
The question that is at the center of this is will he change? Will he grow and change over time? So I don’t have any particular concerns that he will fail to develop strong interests, right? This is a family with a lot of work ethic. This is a motivated, organized, structured family in my universe that tends to leave kids who discover something and they get into it and they get behind it. Will this kid continue to be grumpy when asked to do chores until the day he leaves home? Sure. Probably. Okay. I think it’s funny, Reena, I’ve spent so much of my time caring for adolescent girls and one of the things I have noticed over time is especially for girls, we can want them to both do what we ask and also seem to be glad to. I feel like why do they have to pretend to be glad if they’re not?

Reena Ninan:
I guess the issue is we want them to do it. I don’t care if you’re happy or sad about doing it, but I don’t want to have to nag you over and over again. You should be self-motivated in high school to get those projects done that I don’t have to be over you to sweep the floor, wipe down the countertops. It’s not hard work. It’s not intensive labor, but it is two or three things. It might take about 20 minutes, but you need to budget it. So I’m not nagging about it and I feel like it’s just so hard to get teens to do that. And especially when you throw on sports and you throw on school and you throw on they’re exhausted and then it’s the dead of winter. How do I make that happen? So I’m not the nag.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Alright, what you’re making me think about here is one of my favorite conversations I had with a colleague and it’s a psychologist named Andrew Fellini who’s at UCLA who studies teenagers and he studies purpose and its positive impact on teenagers having a sense of purpose. But our conversation, he said something, he said purpose, it’s not necessarily some grand thing in the world, it’s feeling that somebody is counting on them. That is what young people need a sense that somebody is counting on them. And so back to your question about how do I get ’em to do the counter, walk the dog, or whatever. Some teenagers will be better motivated if you make it clear we’re relying on you to do this. The dog is counting on you to do this. The counters won’t get cleaned unless you clean them. We rely on one another in this family and we’re counting on you because I think so often, Reena, and I’ve totally done this, it’s just easier to do it yourself.

Reena Ninan:
But then I get stressed because I am working full time and then to add on these things that really should be their things.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
They should be their things.

Reena Ninan:
Then I turn into, as they call it a knack.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Exactly.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Or I feel pissy cause I did it.
But I did it because I wanted it done and it was easier for me to do it than to find my kid and knack. Totally. Okay, so Reena, what have you and I resolved in our own homes that in framing up the expectations and the chores, and maybe this is going to be so corny that by the time it’s out of my mouth I hate it and I take it all back. But maybe we just start to say, look, to get this place to run, we all have our jobs. This place can’t run unless we’re all doing our jobs. These are the kinds of things I’m doing around the house that everybody is counting on me to do and that I execute quite reliably. These are the things we are counting on you to do. You are an important member of this family. You are an important member of this organization. We’re counting on you to do these things. Doesn’t mean you have to like it, but you should take pride in the fact that we rely on you and we can. What do you think?

Reena Ninan:
I feel like a lot of teenagers are like, I just don’t want to do it. I just don’t want to do it. And they might not tell you this, that’s the thing, but their actions because they don’t care enough to continue and follow through.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
They vote with their feet.

Reena Ninan:
They vote with their feet.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
They vote with their feet.

Reena Ninan:
That’s well said.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So let’s put this in order of what we might expect. So the highest possible expectation, which I’m not going to hold for very often for very many families is that the kid is like, you’re right. I’m an important member of this organization and you are all counting on me.

Reena Ninan:
Are you families, step forward, I’d love to hear more.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Give me that sponge. I’m going to blame the couch. Okay. Some kids might be moved by that idea of you’re counting on me and that’s important, so I’m going to do my thing and they’ll do it. I think a tick down from that, probably far more common is the family that says, look, I don’t like being on your case. You don’t like me being on your case. The quick and easy solution is you do the thing and then we can go back to having our good time. And I think that’s actually a really key thing that you got to be having fun with your kids so that the nagging comes at a cost.
I’ve said this before, I will say it again. Our good time with our kid is our number one disciplinary strategy. Because if you’re having a good time and suddenly you’re like, whoa, what’s going on with the counter? The kid has a motivation to fix a counter to get back to the good time they were having with you.
So that’s option number two. Number one is idealized. I’m a member of this organization. Number two is we’re having a good time and then when you have to be on my case, it undermines that good time. So I’m going to do the thing or I’m going to do it quickly because you’re now frustrated with me.
I think option number three, kind of going down the chain is the things I want to do are hinge on me doing the things you need me to do. So I can’t go out and play football, I can’t have access to the car, I can’t fill in the blank until I have met my responsibilities around this household. There’s nothing wrong with that. That is totally appropriate. Privileges, responsibilities, hand in hand, link ’em up all day long. That’s how the world works. Your kid could be grumpy as long as they get it done.
And then, this is probably three A or three B. My other favorite quote from my colleague complain, but comply. Complain, but comply. So they can complain. And I think on that quote, I think part of what I love about it is there’s a gentle humor in it.
So you say to the kid, you need to clean the chicken coop and the kid’s like grumpy, grumpy, grumpy. If you’re like, yep, okay, complain, but comply. You’re basically saying, I’m here to have a good time. When you’re done with that.

Reena Ninan:
Yes, it’s the complaint that we can do successfully. It’s the comply that I’m working on. The comply that’s the issue.
Lisa, when you step back, is there anything else when you’re talking about developing these skills that are lifelong skills that can really be transformative in the workforce, what else do you think parents need to know about helping kids develop a good work ethic?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Part of what helps, especially in middle school, is not running a foul of your family but running a foul of your teachers. So one thing that I have done at times, and I love doing this, is if I’m visiting a school, I will say to the kids, write down on a piece of paper something you wish your parents knew. And then I can tell them tonight, and Reena, you would be shocked by how often in middle schools I have gotten kids to write down something like, please let me deal with the consequences of my own choices.

Reena Ninan:
Wow.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So

Reena Ninan:
It’s almost like they want to fall, they want

Dr. Lisa Damour:
To fall.

Reena Ninan:
Fall and then get up on their own.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So if you are on their case to make them do their work and they always get their work done because you’re nagging so much, you’re the work ethic, they haven’t developed it. If you’re like, you know what? You’re not doing your work, you’ll take it up with your teacher. And if it’s a teacher and especially teacher, they care about who’s like, what is this? This is so beneath your capacities, this is so not like you. I expect more that is often in the failure, in the falling short, in the coming up against the consequence of that that is often transformative for kids in terms of getting a work ethic in place.

Reena Ninan:
That is very interesting to me. I mean, I never thought of letting them fall and face the consequences as equally as important as nagging them to get it done.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It is. And I will tell you on the academic side, this kid is in prime time for it because if he blows it in the sixth grade and learns a lesson that way, fantastic.
If you support a kid all the way through middle school and you’re the one who’s nagging and making it happen, you’re not going to pull that out away from them when they hit ninth grade when suddenly, right. That’s a record that can follow them. So what I would say is on the school side of this, kid’s challenges tell the teachers, you know what? Ask a lot of him, you have my permission to make him face the consequences of falling short. No problem there. If he has some pretty bumpy moments in the sixth, seventh, and even eighth grade.

Reena Ninan:
Middle school years, who knew could be important for letting them fall and learn that lesson before they hit high school.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Prime time.

Reena Ninan:
So Lisa, what do you have for us for Parenting to Go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Alright, Reena, for parenting to go, here’s something really important. This parent is asking if what this boy is doing is normal. And the answer is actually yes, because it is normal for teenagers to find friction with adults. Part of the job of a teenager is to rub adults the wrong way. One thing we have to accept though not enjoy as parents of teenagers is that there are going to be things like their rooms, like their chores, like their where they dump their bag that bug us and keep bugging us. And as much as we don’t enjoy it, it is a sign of healthy and typical and expectable growth for teenagers to do things that are frankly just noncompliant. And in my world, I like those noncompliant things to be around things like chores and walking the dog and not around the higher stake stuff. Drugs, drinking, reckless driving. So settle in for some friction on the small stuff. And I believe good friction on the small stuff usually keeps kids from having to ratcheting it up to find the friction that they’re looking for.

Reena Ninan:
Well, I got to tell you, I’m excited about next week’s show. You’ve got a big announcement.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I kind of do.

Reena Ninan:
It’s a really big announcement. I think.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So Reena, in 2016, I published a book called Untangled about raising teenage girls. But in the nine years since it’s been out in the world, I’ve had so many people come up to me and say, 80% of this book applies to all genders, which it does. Next Tuesday, I’m releasing a revised edition of Untangled, a shiny brand new, not terribly altered, but updated version.

Reena Ninan:
So what’s changed? What made you decide to do this now?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, so in the nine years since it came out, I don’t think teenagers have changed that much, but it’s been a busy nine years in the world and some of what they’re up against has changed. And so I wanted to make sure that parents reading the book today got all the support they need and deserve.

Reena Ninan:
Well, I can’t wait to talk about it. It is an amazing book to begin with. So if you haven’t purchased a copy, now is a good time to purchase. And Lisa, we’ll talk about the update and just things that you want to work through that you felt was really important to put in to republish.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I’m excited.

Reena Ninan:
I can’t wait. See you next week.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
See you next week.