How to Stay Connected When Teens Pull Away

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Reena Ninan
Episode #220: How to Stay Connected When Teens Pull Away

You know, Lisa, one thing I’ve heard you say over and over and over again is how much relationships really matter, especially the relationship with your child. I know we’ve heard from so many parents over the years who say that their kids start to withdraw during the teenage years. And what I love about our next two guests is they have this incredible explanation that I had never heard of before I read their book about why kids withdraw.

Lisa Damour
It’s true. If I think about what do parents struggle with, especially in adolescents, it’s the wish to stay connected to their kids. And I am just absolutely thrilled that we have two giants in the field with us today, who have brought across work that really shares what we understand from the academic and the clinical side in all of its richness, in a way that is entirely translated for broad audiences, but doesn’t dumb it down. And that is hard to do, and they do that work beautifully.

Reena Ninan
The book we’re talking about is called “Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers.” It’s a parenting classic by Dr. Gordon Newfield and Dr. Gabor Maté. It’s recently been rereleased with a new look at the rising youth mental health challenges and how digital life is deepening peer influence. Thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Pleased to be here.

Lisa Damour
We’re just delighted to have you.

We talk so often on the podcast about how strong relationships with caring adults are the single most powerful force for mental health and young people. Can you unpack how this book addresses that idea and what this connection really looks like in everyday life?

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
There are so many more words than I had that were able to get into the book, but in a nutshell: We’ve been after this idea of independence, and it turns out that we as humans have relational needs. And relational needs, by definition, are where we depend on others. And the drive for togetherness is the most significant, preeminent drive of all. It’s true for all mammals, and it’s especially true for for humans in very many ways. This never goes away. It’s there from the cradle to the grave. It’s always there. So this idea that adolescents somehow didn’t need us, or somehow they were to get these needs met with each other, that they belong to each other rather than they belong to those who were responsible for them, this is so errand. It’s so wrong. It’s so contrary to everything we know, to all the literature, to all the science. Parents have lost their confidence, confidence in believing they are still their best bet for their adolescents. And yes, what this book is about is that attachment is a delivery system of care, but it requires an umbilical cord. If the adolescent isn’t attached to the parent anymore, that parent can love them with all their heart, that parent can care, but it’s not getting through. And when peers matter, peer groups matter, those who aren’t responsible for the child, the care doesn’t get through. This is dreadful for the adolescents. Is dreadful for the parents, because they’re still there loving their child, but think they’re no longer in the game, and they think their adolescents are independent of them now, because they’re not depending upon them while they’ve just transferred their dependence to others that can’t really take care of them. This book is really about restoring that understanding that our adolescents still need us. In fact, they need us more than ever in this world.

Reena Ninan
Are you kidding? I’m 45 and I feel like I need my parents more than ever, than even before the teenage years. Dr. Maté, I want to ask you a little bit about this concept of peer-oriented and parent-oriented kids. Of course, we know kids need friends. So at what point does peer orientation really become a problem?

Dr. Gabor Maté
First of all, let’s look at humans from the evolutionary point of view: For millions of years, there have been human beings on earth. For 200,000 years our own species has been on Earth. For all those millions of years, and for most of those 200,000 years, kids grew up in a whole network of adult attachments. It’s not that they didn’t have friends, but the friends weren’t the primary relationship. The primary relationship was with the adults, with the uncles, the aunts, the parents, the whole community. This has been subverted in modern culture. As Gordan points out, development takes place in a pyramidal fashion. The base of a pyramid is attachment, strong relationship with parents. The child’s brain itself, the circuitry of the child’s brain, physiologically, is shaped according to the early relationships. This is a physiological fact, a neurophysiological fact.

So there’s attachment, then there is the drive for individuation. And nature wants us, in the end, to become independent, not asocial, but independent creatures with our own sense of who we are, our meanings, our understandings, our preferences.

Then comes socialization, which is where people who are truly individuated can connect respectfully and caringly with other human beings. Now in our culture, we’ve put socialization ahead of individuation, so long before kids are their own persons, and long before their attachment with the adults is solidified, we put them into their peer group, and they spend most of their time with their peers, so their attachment becomes transferred to the peer group before they even know who they are.

Reena Ninan
So, based on that research, what would you advise parents? Should we be telling them to hang out with their friends less?

Dr. Gabor Maté
So when it comes to teenagers, what we call “teenage healthy rebellion” is neither healthy, nor is it a rebellion. Because genuine rebellion is for is for freedom. But the teenager who undergoes what we call “healthy teenage rebellion” actually just wants to belong and submit themselves to the peer group. So it’s neither rebellion, nor is it healthy. Now, what should we do? Well, this is Gordon’s work is to recognize the primary importance of attachment throughout the life cycle, but certainly through adolescence, which means that anything we do to raise our kids, the behaviors, their institutions that they go to, whatever… needs to value attachment above anything else. And then they can be prepared for the healthy individuation. Parents need to understand the importance of attachment, which means staying away from this stuff [phones], staying away from the social media. Don’t let your infants play with iPads, these addictive devices that actually wean them away from adult attention. Kids should be at home much longer, rather than in daycares, if that’s possible. If it’s not possible, then the daycares need to be places where adult attachment is emphasized, rather than peer attachment.

Reena Ninan
I love this concept that you guys have that the attachment is the psychological umbilical cord. And you write, actually, if it’s cut, nothing you say gets through. So Dr. Neufeld, if it does get cut, because so many parents feel like it does get cut early, what do we do?

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Well, the good news is that it’s never too late with the relationship. It doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed, but we’re always looking for home, for a place to belong, for a sense of significance, for a sense of mattering, for love. It’s knowing that we are their answer, not that we have answers. It’s very hard to have answers anymore at all. But that doesn’t mean we aren’t the answer. And to step up to be the answer to our 13-year-old or 15-year-old or 16-year-old. When we give them a sense of significance, when we bridge the differences, when we can convey that they matter to us, that they’re important to us, they’re looking for this. And if it’s on our table, more than likely they’re going to come back to feed at our table. But if we let behavior get in between, if we let differences get in between, if we let our lack of confidence erode us from that place, and we don’t step up leaving where their best bet, we lose them. We lose them automatically. So it’s a matter more not of knowing what to do. It’s very hard to know what to do anymore. And that’s not really absolutely essential. It’s stepping up to the plate and saying, “You’re still my son, you’re still my daughter. I’m not going to let anything get between. Bottom line is: You’re important to me. You matter to me. You’re significant to me.”

Dr. Gabor Maté
I think it’s important to say that once kids become peer-oriented adults, parents are going to experience a lot of rejection, a lot of resistance on the part of the teenagers, and that’s where there’s a tendency to give up or to get frustrated and get authoritarian. It’s a long project. Once kids have become peer-oriented, it’s very difficult to to bring them back under our care. But, as Gordon says, we’re still their best bet. And we can give them what peers can’t, which is unconditional, loving acceptance.

Lisa Damour
Dr. Maté, along those lines, how do we shift the focus away from fixing behavior or trying to get kids to be less rejecting, towards really rebuilding the relationships? Like, what does that look like in the kitchen?

Dr. Gabor Maté
First of all, behaviors are symptoms; they’re not the fundamental problems. They’re the manifestations of something, and usually the manifestations of relational issues. For example, Gordon and I have both had this experience of somebody comes to us and says, “Our kid was really good until they were nine years old, then they became really bad.” And we say to them, “We have bad news and we have good news. The bad news is: Your kid was never good in the first place. And the good news is that they’re not bad now. What they were is they were oriented to you and attached to you. They were they were following your guidance. Now they become detached. Now they’re following the previous guidance.” So it’s not the behavior that we have to address, but the relationship. We have to get them back into relationship and all the oppositionality… There’s all this nonsense diagnosis of “oppositional defiant disorder.” It doesn’t even exist. Oppositionality, by definition, happens in a relationship. Why are we diagnosing the kid? Why don’t we look at the relationship in which the child manifests opposition? We’re the ones who’ve got the power to change that relationship. Look, I learned a lot from Gordon. This book is his thesis and his work. And at a certain point with my teenage daughter I said, “We’re going have dinner once a week no matter what.” And at least half the time we fought like cats and dogs. But next week, we’re gonna have dinner again. Make yourself available no matter what, and not respond to the behaviors, which are just symptomatic.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
There’s another way the kitchen is involved, Lisa, since you brought up the kitchen–

Lisa Damour
I have a 21 and 14-year-old. Everything goes down in the kitchen.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Yes, it does. But also, food is a fundamental way of caring. Not just food, but feeding. It can start there, in being able to remember what your child loves, what they like, what is important to them. Make that. Find a way of actually demonstrating that you care, instead of reacting. Warm the food up with love, or prepare it together and certainly eat it together. Because it really does begin there. Meal time should be a time of collecting the eyes, the smiles, the nods. A time that you do the most fundamental thing of all. Establish this connection around caring, about giving and receiving, receiving and giving.

Dr. Gabor Maté
Not in front of the TV set, either.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Yeah, no.

Lisa Damour
I always am saying to families, “You need to meet them more than halfway. This is our job. This is where we find ourselves.”

So Dr. Neufeld, one of the chapters I really enjoyed especially was around disciplining kids. And you talk about good attachment as a key disciplinary strategy. Can you walk us through that?

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Well, in every which way we feel like being good for those that we’re attached to. So the bottom line is: when the attachment is there, we’ll feel a lot more like being good, and that’s 80, 90% of the battle. The other thing is, even though as couples we may be very attached to each other, you have to engage those attachment instincts. We have better attachment manners with our friends. We get their eyes, we get smiles, we get nods, and when they’re nodding we say, “Can I ask you for a favor?” Whereas with our kids, we say, “Set the table. Put away your shoes. Get your room clean.” And we do this cold. We would never work our friends cold. Never. And yet, we parent cold. We do this, with parents even more. So first of all, make sure that you do your relational work so that they experience the invitation to exist in your presence, that that really gets through. Secondly, make sure you do that before you say, “Pass the salt.” Get the eyes, get the smiles, get the twinkle back in your eye. Give them a sense that this isn’t only about getting you to do stuff. This is in a context of a loving relationship.

Reena Ninan
Oh, my God, I’ve screwed up so badly. [Laughter] This is so bad. They’re finally paying attention to me, I’m like, “Hey, did you take out the trash? Did you–” Because it’s the end of my day, and I need all these things done, and I don’t have time for attachment parenting because I need to get stuff done, and you’re telling me I’ve just ruined my relationship!

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
No, we all screw up!

Dr. Gabor Maté
Actually, you spend much of that time if you practice interaction parenting. And as Gordon says, it’s not a question of a whole lot of effort; it’s a question of a smile, it’s a question of an attitude, it’s a question of softness of tone, it’s a question of welcoming. Gordon says, I love this phrase of his: He says, “Collect him before you direct them.” I love that. And collecting doesn’t take a long time.

As to discipline, in this continent we confuse discipline with punishment. Like, I’m going to discipline you, but discipline has nothing to do with punishment, necessarily. What is a disciple?

Lisa Damour
To follow.

Dr. Gabor Maté
Somebody who follows you. Our Jesus, to name one example, had disciples, not because he threatened them and punished them. Because they loved him and trusted him. Discipline is really a way of being aligned with certain principles, and if the relationship works, your kids will be your disciples. That doesn’t mean they’ll agree with you on everything, but there won’t be this malignant, toxic resistance.

Reena Ninan
So when you talk about the parent-oriented model, how does that compare to what people talk about helicopter parenting?

Dr. Gabor Maté
Can I address that one?

Lisa Damour
Go for it. Lay it on us.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
We both want it.

Lisa Damour
We want you to answer this.

Dr. Gabor Maté
Helicopter parenting has nothing to do with the needs of the child. It has to do with the anxiety of the parent. They need to hover over the kid to make sure the kid has a life trajectory that the parent envisions for them. That has nothing to do with the child’s needs and personality and predilections. So it’s about driving them here, driving them there, this practice, that practice, yoga, soccer, dance class, whatever. And it’s not relational by definition. The helicopter’s above the ground; you’re not with the child, you’re above them. And you’re trying to control them to assuage your anxieties. It’s a very harmful kind of parenting actually.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
To get to a child’s side, for the child to feel them at their side, is a fundamental human relationship kind of thing that that is about attachment, to get to their side. To communicate to them that they cannot handle things is crippling. When the person that we look to for cues about “Can I can I do this? Can I handle this? Am I strong? Am I going to be overwhelmed?” suggests that I can’t, it’s devastating. So our responsibility is get to their side. But oh my goodness, when you do this, you want to convey, “You’ve got this, Honey. I’m just here at your side. You can do this.” And, yeah, smothering has never been good. As Gabor says, it’s more about the needs of the parent, when that’s happening. If it’s about the child, we can find our place and be their support cast.

Lisa Damour
I love it. I also just love the warmth, the just top-to-bottom warmth that you are making the case for. I think sometimes the messages that people are getting in the culture give them the impression you’re supposed to tell teenagers what to do, get them under control, make them under control, make them act the way they’re supposed to act. If they’re rude, you gotta bring them in line. And I agree with you completely. My training is very much the same training you have around the fundamental power of a good working relationship to make everything else happen. And the cost of not having a relationship, that nothing can happen in that context.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
You captured it. That word is so important, “warmth.” It’s so hard to define, and yet that warmth is there. Carl Jung said that warmth is the vital element for the growing plant and the growing child. And if the child does not feel our warmth, is not safe, does not see their own dignity in our eyes, does not feel that invitation, they’re going to be dreadfully wounded. Why wouldn’t they go to their peers? Because they think they’re going to be better off. Unfortunately, they’re not. But they think they’ll be better off.

Lisa Damour
And I think the dynamic that so often unfolds is: teenagers do seek independence, and it feels personal to the adult, and then it’s hard to feel warmth.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
They don’t seek independence if dependence hasn’t been aversive. When we use what children care about against them, we are engaging in a most cynical kind of parenting. “Be careful what you get attached to, because it gives me power over you.” And we’ve been confusing that with discipline, teaching a lesson using what they care about against them.

Lisa Damour
Give me an example of using what they care about against them, just so that I know exactly.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
We call it consequences. I’m gonna look around for what it is that you’re attached to and use that against you, and then we’re surprised that they don’t care anymore.

Lisa Damour
Like, “I’m taking away your phone.”

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Yes. First of all, that’s not even a starter. Why would somebody that’s responsible for you ever use what you care about against you? That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

Dr. Gabor Maté
Human beings need to individuate. They need to grow up. And there’s always been rituals in every culture to celebrate the growing up and responsibility-taking and independence of the child. But that didn’t mean rejecting the adults. In fact, the children were initiated into adulthood, into an independence, through the community and through the adults–

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
And in the context of that.

Dr. Gabor Maté
In that context, so that independence doesn’t mean pushing away in a hostile way at all. The other thing about the warmth: If you look at the neuroscience of it, the brains of mammals and even birds are wired for caring. There’s circuitry with prolactin and oxytocin and endorphins dedicated to caring for the young. So that warmth with a new baby is almost inevitable. For almost anybody who sees a new baby, they’ll have a sense of warmth. But then what happens is that our own warmth gets shut down as our kids start pushing away from us, and instead of triggering our warmth, they trigger our coldness. And then we think there’s something wrong with them. We haven’t realized that actually we’ve lost a relationship. And, as Gordon points out, we are born with instincts, but those instincts had to be evoked by the environment. And a child that’s pushing away from us in this peer-oriented culture, and the impact of the social media… It doesn’t evoke our warmth; it evokes our despair and even our own resistance.

Lisa Damour
I’m glad you brought up social media, because one of the things we wanted to think with you about is the pros and cons of it. Digital technology, can it fit into the parent-child relationship? How should we think about it?

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Social media usually isn’t used to connect with one’s grandparents.

Lisa Damour
That’s true.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
It’s just a means of connection. It’s who you’re connecting to that’s the important thing. If you use digital connection to be able to preserve the family, to preserve the connections that one needs, yes. But if it competes with those, then there’s a problem. It’s competitive. And again, the question back to can’t kids have friends? Of course they can. So can your spouse. But if those friends compete with the relationship with you, that’s a different story. It’s not about friends. It’s about attachment affairs, when others matter more.

In fact, this is the same inside the family: when siblings matter more to each other then mattering to their parents, we’ve got huge problems. We can’t manage them. We can’t do anything with them. They don’t feel our care. So it’s not only about friends, it’s about siblings. It’s about things. It could be a pet. The fact is, parents need to matter most, hence the subtitle of the book, “why they need to matter.” Think again in terms of a couple. The issue is obviously togetherness, otherwise it wouldn’t be family. The issue is also separateness. You don’t want to lose your separateness of being. But what is the real issue? Togetherness without loss of separateness and separateness without loss of togetherness. That is the challenge with the adolescent: Togetherness without loss of separateness and separateness without loss of togetherness. And there’s two invitations we can give to a child: the invitation to exist in our presence and not let anything come in between, and the invitation for the fruit of that to become their own person. Those invitations should co exist, not one be at the cost of the other. They’re both invitations, and they’re both the most important invitations we can give to our loved ones.

Reena Ninan
If you’re listening and you’re a parent and you feel like “I have lost the separation, the umbilical cord has been cut,” what’s your advice to regaining that connection?

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Where do we start? We start with getting our mojo back with saying, “I don’t have to know what to do, I just have to do it. I have to get across to my child that I care about them.” Now, how am I going to do that?

Dr. Gabor Maté
One problem is that lot of parents carry their own traumas.

Reena Ninan
True.

Dr. Gabor Maté
The sense of abandonment and rejection that goes back to their own childhoods. Unresolved, those traumas can show up in your relationship with your child, so when your child is pushing away from you, traumatized parents who don’t realize it, can make it about themselves and actually believe they’re being rejected, they’re being abandoned by their children, which can bring up a lot of pain, a lot of resentment and a lot of resistance. So parents really have to take responsibility for their own emotions and not make their child responsible, at any age, not make the child responsible for how the parent feels. And not let those traumatic imprints cause you to desist from that commitment to the child that Gordon is talking about.

Lisa Damour
I was reading your book on a plane, and I was actually moved to tears in my seat when I came to this line: “The ultimate gift is to make a child feel invited to exist in our presence exactly as he is.” Could each of you give us your take on what that looks like? What is a concrete example of how we make that happen in our homes?

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Well, it’s communicated most beautifully when there’s something that’s come in between. When there’s differences, when there’s violated values, when there’s disappointments and so on. It’s, in a sense, the story of the parable of the prodigal son, if you remember it: When the son has violated all the values of the father, it’s in that context that the father says, “I love you. None of that is going to come in between,” and reaches out to close the gap. And it’s those moments that really get through. I remember once I was really frustrated with my youngest son. He was six, and when I realized my voice, he told me once, “Daddy stopped hitting me.” And I said, “I don’t hit you.” And he said, “You just hit me right again with your words.” I can hit hard with my words. And in this case, I got back to my senses, and I said, “I’m sorry. This frustration was not about you, but you got hit by my frustration.” And his response was, “It’s okay, Daddy. I can remember now that you love me even when you’re mad at me.” But there has to be some indications that you’ve been able to communicate that and bridge that. And so part of the responsibility for a parent is to look what needs to be bridged, retroactively, proactively, that we can say, “Yes, I understand that I get really frustrated. That happens, and yes, that’s not what I value. But the bottom line is, you’re my son. You’re my daughter. I love you. I care about you. I still look forward to having dinner with you tonight.” That the relationship has survived.

Lisa Damour
Dr. Maté, anything to add?

Dr. Gabor Maté
No, I think that’s said beautifully. But there’s one issue I’d like to return to for a moment, which is of digital media. Yes, it can be used to cement or maintain family relationships at a distance. From that point of view, it’s a miracle. I heard of one kid who looks at the computer and says, “Grandpa,” because it was always on the– [Laughter]

But at the same time, that’s the use of digital media, limited, controlled, in the presence of adults. Now, a lot of kids, it’s breaks my heart, and I see these kids with iPads in restaurants or in the street. Small kids, two, three years old. Now, the studies have shown that early exposure, prolonged exposure to digital media, actually misshapes the brain. Important brain circuits on brain scans don’t develop. And those devices are not just addictive, they’re designed to be addictive, and they can form attachments that can actually threaten the relationship with the adults. And to try and peel a kid who’s addicted to off their cell phone or off their computer is like trying to separate a drug addict from their drugs. You’re going to get hatred, resistance, violence and resentment and disobedience. So I can’t overemphasize the importance of adults for a long time, many years, not allowing independent use of social media, limiting it only in the presence of adults, and only for the purposes that support attachments. And it’s like Gordon points out: Nobody minds people having a drink, but we don’t give it to 2-year-olds. We give it to them when they’re ready for it. And sex itself is a part of human life, but we don’t encourage 4-year-olds to engage in it until they’re ready for it. And it’s the same with digital media. That can’t be overemphasized, because once kids get hooked on it, it’s a devil’s job trying to get them to let go. It’s a major new challenge to parenting. And furthermore, of course, it provides another platform for peer connection.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
Yes, yes.

Dr. Gabor Maté
Even when they’re not in each others’ physical presence, they can be through digital media. So parents need to get on top of that before it gets out of hand. And once it gets out of hand, oh boy. It’s not impossible, but you gotta work on the relationship a lot before then you have the influence to get them to limit the digital media.

Dr. Gordon Neufeld
But you can’t control where you don’t have the power. And the power doesn’t come from authority; it comes from attachment. Once they’re addicted, just like any addiction, you need to have a relational context with which to be able to have the influence. You can’t limit to have the influence; you have to be able to restore the relationship to make some headway with the addiction.

Reena Ninan
There’s so much here to unpack. I see why this is a parenting classic, and I’ve learned so many things from this book and from our conversation today. I want to thank you both for joining us, Dr. Gordon Neufeld and Dr. Gabor Maté. The book is called “Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers.”

Wow. Lisa, that was just incredible.

Lisa Damour
I know. Such a rich conversation and so poetic, in its way.

Reena Ninan
What do you have for us for Parenting to Go?

Lisa Damour
Well, I feel like my Parenting to Go seems awfully small and superficial relative to that conversation, but one thing I was thinking about in that conversation is that I don’t usually give very generic advice about raising teenagers. I’m always onto something specific. But when people ask for it, I do say: I think one of the hardest and most important things in all of parenting a teenager is not holding a grudge. There will be times when you feel hurt. There will be times when you feel stepped on. And you could really nurse that for a very long time, and it will get in the way of all good things that you want to have happen with your kid. Usually, they have moved on very quickly. Or, if you move on quickly, they will move on with you. The goal, and I will truly say, as a mother of teenagers, and also one of the hardest things in raising teenagers, is to not hold grudges.

Reena Ninan
Just out of curiosity, if I know a parent who always takes away the cell phone as a disciplinary action, what’s another…?

Lisa Damour
Asking for a friend, Reena?

Reena Ninan
Asking for a friend. [Laughter]

Lisa Damour
Well, maybe we’ll take a page out of Dr. Maté’s & Neufeld’s book, and maybe instead, you take him out for a treat and talk about what went wrong.

Reena Ninan
I’ll see you next week.

Lisa Damour
I’ll see you next week.