Encore: How Do We Talk to Kids About Justice? Special Guest Preet Bharara

Ask Lisa Podcast, Ep. 125: Encore: How Do We Talk To Kids About Justice? Advice From Preet Bharara

The Ask Lisa Podcast does not constitute medical advice and is not a substitute for professional

mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have concerns about your child’s well-being,

consult a physician or mental health professional.

REENA: It’s hard to ignore, and it’s kind of hard for parents, watching the images this month coming out of Ukraine, and so Lisa I can’t imagine a better guest joining us today. He’s got a very timely book. We’re joined by Preet Bharara, who is the author of a new children’s book called “Justice Is: A Guide For Young Truth Seekers,” and also a podcast host of “Stay Tuned” where he breaks down legal topics in the news. Preet was actually featured on the cover of Time magazine as one of the hundred most influential people in the world. He’s a former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York where Preet, in that capacity, oversaw cases relating to financial fraud, public corruption, gang violence and terrorism. I mean Preet has taken down big sharks on Wall Street for corruption, terrorists, which makes him the perfect guest to tell us how to deal with our toddlers and teens. A dad of three.

PREET: If we could designate children to be domestic terrorist organizations, I think that would make parenting a lot easier. I think that Congress is behind. We need to get the legislative branch to step up.

LISA: I think you’d have a lot of parents who would be behind that kind of legislation.

PREET: A lot of recidivism among the children of America.

REENA: True.

PREET: Yeah.

REENA: Preet, welcome very, very much. We’re so excited to have you here.

LISA: Thank you for being with us. Okay, so let’s just get right into it. You have this incredibly impressive resume. How did you end up writing a children’s book?

PREET: Well, you know, it’s an interesting story. I wrote a book, I was about to say I wrote an adult book, which makes it sound like it was pornographic.

LISA: That’s not what you mean.

PREET: It wasn’t. I wrote a book for grown ups about justice. It’s called “Doing Justice,” and it talks about the concepts of fairness and justice and it’s not meant for just lawyers, it’s meant for everybody, and it’s a lot of stories about the cases we oversaw and how you think critically about decisions you make, not just as lawyers, but in the workplace and within your family and everything else, and the book it very well, and the publisher actually came to me and approached me, at Crown, you know, under the penguin Random House umbrella. You know, there’s really not a book for children, a picture book, about justice and some of these issues, you know, and what do you think? And, you know, I’ve never done it before. I said, do I have to draw the pictures myself? They said, no, and we have the privilege of working with Sue Cornelison, who did a beautiful job illustrating. I think what’s impressive about the book, mostly, is her illustrations and then some of the words to go along with them and the introduction of some of these people to young people and their parents, but, you know, I got to thinking about it, and actually this will be one of my questions to Lisa, I think we underestimate the ability of young people, and quite young people, to understand what’s fair and what’s not, what’s right and what’s not. You see kids playing a game, they know right away if someone’s cheating. They scream, not fair, you know, right off the bat, and so I think it’s never too early to introduce these concepts to young people. There’s never been a more important time to make sure that we’re raising our kids in a way that they understand issues of justice and fairness, and then finally, what the book generally does introduce courageous figures who advance the cause of justice in various areas, both the United States and in other countries around the world, both in the modern day and also going back a century or two. Lincoln is featured in the book, Frederick Douglass is featured in the book, Gandhi is featured in the book, Malala Yousafzai is featured in the book and, you know, lots of young people watch or read superhero comics, and what are those about ultimately? They’re the fight between good and evil and  truth, justice and the American way, if you will. Why not have a book filled with pictures of actual heroes who actually did stuff and don’t have super powers other than their own spine and moral compass? And that’s basically why we thought about putting this book out.

REENA: You know what I love about this book? It’s not preachy, you know, it is great for all ages because the illustrations are beautiful and there’s one line. So, you can tell your child as much as you want about Malala and the Taliban, and then there’s an index in the back. So, if you’ve forgotten sort of what happened in history in that moment, there’s a little refresher for parents, who can kind of learn, too, as you go if you forgot.

PREET: Yeah well we thought about this as your jumping off point, and if you haven’t if you have a child, and it’s intended for people 4 to 8, but I think you can go older, you know, maybe even a little bit younger because there’s such rich material that’s behind the material of the book. My own dad, when I was young, would tell stories about people that he admired. I’m from India, was born in India. My dad was born in what was the combination of India and Pakistan before partition and he would tell me and my brother stories about Mahatma Gandhi’s fight for independence for India from Great Britain. So, I remember hearing those things. Look, even in this Ukraine invasion crisis, we have the villain, Vladimir Putin, who is, you know, increasingly unhinged, backed into a corner, doing things are not rational or reasonable, and then you have Volodymyr Zelensky, who might might be in a future version of this book, given how he’s acting, given how he’s rallying the people of Ukraine and how brave he’s being. So, when bad stuff happens, it’s terrible, but good people often, if not always, rise up to it.

LISA: There’s this famous line from Fred Rogers about helping kids when they’re watching a crisis unfold, where he always says tell children to look for the helpers, and you’ve given us a book of helpers. So on the topic of Ukraine. This is high on everybody’s mind right now as we’re watching the images come out this month, about what’s happening there. What are your thoughts about how parents might use your book to help have the kinds of conversations they want to be having with their children right now?

PREET: Yeah, I mean this is not my expertise of how to use a book to interpret and understand and process, you know, what is on the verge of being a series of atrocities against innocent people who are in a country that’s independent and sovereign, a member United Nations, not in any way threatening Russia that that’s hard, you know, it’s hard for me to process. I’m 53 and I’ve had a career and had some success along the way, and so part of what you have to tell folks is a version of what I was saying earlier, you know, bad things happen and you have to acknowledge that. You know one of the worries I have, given some of the movements of some of the states in this country, is people want to whitewash history, and, you know, this book in a, I think a sensitive way, addresses bad things too. It addresses slavery, you know, there’s a representation of slavery, of Japanese internment during World War II and a number of other things, and this is a version of an answer to your question about Ukraine. I don’t know how you talk about the courage and the tenacity and the nobility of Lincoln and how you can understand why we celebrate Lincoln if you don’t understand what slavery was, right? How you can understand, you know, the power of Gandhi’s nonviolent resistance movement if you don’t understand how bad colonialism was and how bad the lack of independence was, and so in the same way I think, you know, when you talk about Ukraine you don’t only talk about the bad, you talk with the courage of the people who are fighting for their country, who are fighting for their autonomy, who are fighting for the integrity of their border, of the leadership that’s been shown by Zelensky, and not just Zelensky, what’s so impressive to me about it is, you know, ordinary people, the soldiers are being braver than anyone expected, even though they’re outmatched and outgunned, and in any tragedy, you know, whenever anything bad happens I think you also have to, not just with young people but with everybody, emphasize the heroes who rise to the moment. Some of the worst things that ever happened, including the shooting in parkland, right? Tragic disaster, tears come to your eyes just contemplating the idea of a shooter killing students and teachers at a public school in Florida, but from that, so you can’t just talk about that. From that you had all these young people who are still in the public eye today, who are talking not just about gun violence, but also about other issues. Leaders are born in moments of crisis even when they’re teenagers.

REENA: Preet, I’m curious. You mentioned your dad. How has being an immigrant factored into your job as a dad of three?

PREET: You know, I think parenting is parenting, and, you know, if you’re a parent in India or parent in America or a parent of somebody who was born in India and came to America, there’s a lot of, you know, that little kids can be terrorists as we said at the beginning of a conversation, but a couple things. One, you know, the way I think about being an immigrant is that I owe a lot to America, and there’s a lot of debate about the degree to which you criticize your country, and I certainly think we can be better, but but boy I love the United States of America, and I say that unabashedly all the time, and in one of the reasons I spent 17 and a half years in public service and continued in that service up until I was fired, thrown out of the building.

REENA: By President Trump.

PREET: By then-president Trump, was I felt that America gave me so much. I wanted to give back to the country, and so I’ve emphasized to my kids who are, you know, older now. My oldest is about to be 21 and I have a 19-year-old and a 17-year-old, is public service and I’m proud of the fact that they’re engaged in, you know, of the civic issues of the day in America, around the world, they care a lot about what’s going on and they have inspired me to get to be active as well. They took me to the Women’s March back in 2017 and then, you know, to other demonstrations after George Floyd was killed. So, I think being an immigrant means you owe a lot to the country that adopted you. I think also what it means is you don’t want your children to lose touch with, you know, what their heritage is and, you know, we have a very mixed heritage. My children have one Sikh grandparent, on Hindu grandparent one Jewish grandparent and one Muslim grandparent.

REENA: Wow. You check off every box.

PREET: Yeah, which I think, if I’m doing the math correctly makes them Episcopalian. The more difficult conversation was sitting down to dinner with my kids five years ago and saying, you know, I’ve got to tell you something. I’ve been invited to Trump Tower to meet with Donald Trump who’s going to ask me to stay on as U.S. attorney, and first, I thought it was a joke, and my daughter asked very pointedly, why? And it’s a great question, and it’s a little hard to explain to them that I did not think of myself as working for the president or serving the president. I didn’t think of myself as working for or serving Barack Obama, and Barack Obama, actually, once when we had a big photo op with all the U.S. attorneys in the country in front of him, he made it a point, it sounds quaint now, but Barack Obama, when he was president, said, I appointed you, the Senate confirmed you, but you don’t answer to me. You don’t work for me. You don’t serve me. You serve the people, and you serve the constitution, and I really believe that. It was naive, and it lasted seven weeks because then Donald Trump started calling me and that I thought it was inappropriate and I was told to go, but I just explained, and I think, you know, and maybe if I can interpose a question to Lisa here, how much do we underestimate young people’s ability to understand complex things?

LISA: I think tremendously, and one of the things that is extraordinary about young people, and I would say especially teenagers, is they get to the bottom line very fast. Teenagers have, I think, X-ray vision for people’s souls and I think it’s sometimes why people don’t like teenagers, is that teenagers can see right through situations and right through people, and I’ll put it this way. You can B.S. a grownup, you can B.S. a little kid, but you actually cannot pull the wool over the eyes of a teenager.

PREET: Really?

LISA: I have found that to be true.

PREET: Then why aren’t they in office? We should put them in office.

LISA: Well, it’s like you say, the Parkland teenagers have been so powerful because they’re so clear. They don’t get caught up in the vagaries of things, they go right for the heart of things. So, I think teenagers have tremendous power in this way, but also younger kids do too. One of the things we talked about on this podcast is that 6-year-olds are incredibly moral in their approach to the world. They become very, very aware of right and wrong, and sometimes actually to a rigid degree. A lot of times people feel like having a 6-year-old’s like living with a church lady. It’s like the parents get in the car and the kid’s like, put on your seatbelt.

PREET: But is there a paradox? Don’t 6-year-olds also steal from the cookie jar, and punch their sister in the face and do that sort of thing?

LISA: They can.

PREET: But they know, but they know.

LISA: But they really start to have an awareness that what they are doing is wrong. Whereas, if you’re under the age of 6, usually the view of morality is if you don’t get caught, you’re good to go. As soon as you’re age 6, you do have a sense of there’s a right and wrong that goes with you everywhere you go, and I think that that just intensifies as kids age, and teenagers are very clear-eyed about what they think is right and wrong, and I think a lot of parents, myself included, I have an 11-year-old daughter and an 18-year-old daughter, a lot of parents I feel like what you were describing about your kids getting you to the Women’s March, my kids hold my feet to the fire about what I say, how I say it, if I’m being as inclusive as I need to be, if I’m, you know, I have learned more from them about what it means to be a broad-minded, inclusive human being than any of my own training or other endeavors.

PREET: Look, the world is changing, and the first person I go to is my daughter. Can you explain why people think this? Or why it’s important to use this kind of language as opposed to this other kind of language that I grew up with and always thought was appropriate and we have really good conversations about that. I have another question for you because, it’s a little bit off topic, but what age group among children is the most self-absorbed?

LISA: Okay.

PREET: Is it the babies?

LISA: Well, a baby, by their nature because the world begins and ends, you know, at what they can perceive, and here is the hard thing. I adore teenagers and I tend to be entirely complimentary of them, but the reality is that teenagers, by their nature, are unusually ego-centristic, and I always resisted this characterization of them. I always felt like, oh, no don’t don’t trash teenagers. Everybody loves to trash teenagers, and then I had an experience that made it impossible for me to entirely set this to the side, and it’s a terrible story, but it was very illuminating. So, I consult at a school one day a week. I practice and I write and I get to do this fabulous podcast with Reena, but one day a week I consult at a school, and years ago we had a student who was killed in an accident. She was a junior and it was just a freak accident and it happened. And a couple of months later I was walking down the hall and a pack of juniors stopped me and they were like, Dr. Damout, we have to talk to you. The AP English curriculum has too many stories about death and we are having a very hard time reading these stories in light of our friend’s death, and I said to them, I hear you. Can I throw a possibility by you? Now that you have experienced grief and bereavement. Is there any possibility that these stories will take on a whole new meaning to you that you could not have possibly accessed if you had not been through this experience yourself. So, I was enormously pleased with my response. They were appalled by what I said. It was immediately clear that for me to put their grief on the level with grief that has ever happened to anyone else in the history of being a human was offensive to them, and I don’t think I over got my cred back with that pack.

PREET: Can I ask another question? Because this has been on my mind for a long time. So, I think a lot about corruption. What makes decent people do bad things. The theme of my work, it’s not necessary to understand if you’re a prosecutor, but if you’re a thinking person and a curious person about human behavior, you think about it. I get asked about a lot, right? And I’ve asked other people who probe corruption and bad conduct. The question of what is the quality of a person that you have found in the course of your study, research, evaluation that most protects someone from falling into miss behavior and corruption and cheating and stealing and and all of that? And the best answer I’ve ever heard was from Michael Lewis, who has written a lot of great books, and he said, it’s the quality of being self-possessed, self-possession, which is something that overlaps with independence and not caring what the crowd thinks so much, but but it’s a little bit more about comfort with yourself, comfort with your own morality, and those people resist the mob better than others. That probably is an attribute a lot of the people in this book, but we don’t talk about it.  We talk about courage and heroism. We don’t talk about self-possession. Do you have a thought about that?

LISA: Well I don’t disagree. Though, I would go to empathy as the protective force that keeps people from doing wrong things to other people because when we think about things like sociopaths, right? That’s back in my neighborhood, they are fascinated by how you get over on people and they put the full weight of their intellect behind trying to figure out how to get over on people, and what’s missing from that picture is the getting over on people harms people, and for most people, that’s enough to stop them from doing it. You know, we could all think of ways to exploit others, but the thing that gets between us and doing it is the fact that we don’t want to harm anybody. So, the more we cultivate empathy, all good things happen and it also, I think, reduces the chance that your child will do things that are wrong things.

PREET: Yeah, there are kind of two categories of people. There are the people who do bad things. They’re the sociopaths. They’re the leaders of bad movements. But then, as we all know from history, some of which is what is relevant to the character of the people in the book, that most of those bad people can get away with what they do unless there are masses of generally decent people who just go along.

LISA: Yeah.

PREET: That’s where I think self-possession comes in. How do you resist the crowd when everyone is saying, we need to go, you know, do this bad thing. Well, I guess I should do it too. Look, we’ve seen this question about how, you know, why some of them do and some of them don’t is, I think, ever-fascinating.

LISA: You know, one of the real challenges is when a movement comes along that catches people up within it. Something about that movement is telling the story that helps them make sense of their world. It may not be a true story, it may not be a kind story, but I’m much, much better at thinking at the level of the individual than the group. That’s how my brain was trained, and so when I think about an individual who gets caught up in something that we can see from the outside is, for lack of a better word, a bad idea. I can’t help but think that something about that story in that movement is meeting a need for that person, and we need to know what need is being met if we want to work against people getting caught up in those movements.

REENA: Preet, I want to ask you about your time under COVID with your kids. What was it like? You have teenagers.

PREET: So the coronavirus is terrible. We’ve lost so many people and there’s so much suffering and disengagement with people, but there are some silver linings for some people. You know, when the world shut down in March of 2020, what followed was day after day after day of my wife and I and all three of our kids at the dinner table every meal. I counted. We had an unbroken streak. My daughter, by the way, was in college, we had to go get her from college because college went remote, and then my two boys were in high school still so they were still with us, but, you know, the ordinary course of life which is I have events and I have talks and I travel, and my wife is very busy doing various things, the kids have school and they go see friends. We went from that, you know, occasional, you know, one or two nights during the week, on the weekend having dinner together. We had 105 dinners, and I counted, 105 consecutive dinners, and they were not short and, you know, we had the luxury of time every night to talk about what’s going on the world, to tell stories that, you know, from my childhood or my wife’s childhood, play games, you know, twenty questions, you know, whatever the case may be. At a time when lots of terrible things were happening, you know, when I’m old or older, years from now, I’m going to think back on those dinners in a very fond way. Should I feel guilty about that?

LISA: No. I think, you know, you didn’t cause this pandemic. We all had to find a way through it, and I actually think, I’ve heard from a lot of people that they’ve struggled with questions about can I enjoy aspects of this? Can you even have a nice time right now? And one of the things that has come up on this podcast is that one of the lessons from positive psychology is that the presence of the negative doesn’t mean the absence of the positive, and especially in the context of so much negative, it’s the positive that fills us up. It’s a positive that makes it possible to bear through the hard time in an incredibly long hard time. So, rather than feeling guilty about the positives that any of us have been able to enjoy or can enjoy going forward, I would want people to soak them up and really savor them because there is so much hard in the world that we need to try to be equal to, and that’s the only way we’re going to be able to do it.

PREET: You know I think that’s right. I hope that’s right.

REENA: I do feel guilty of all the chocolate and bottles of red wine I consume that I’m still trying to work off at this point. But Lisa, you know, we talk so much on the podcast about mental health issues and I just feel like we’re all going through something at this point through this pandemic and  trying to cope with it, and the White House just came up with some new guidelines that were released this month.

LISA: Yeah, the White House just put out an ambitious plan to try to really shore up the provision of mental health in the U.S. and of course I couldn’t have been happier to see it, and it includes all sorts of things for people of all ages, including stuff for kids trying to enhance the service provision within schools, early childhood things, and also things along the lines of like mental health parity, meaning that insurance companies are going to be hopefully expected to cover mental health in the same way they cover physical health. You know, if you need chemo, you get as much chemo as you need if you need. If you need psychotherapy, you can have five sessions, and this has always been a problem. And Preet,I wonder, do you have thoughts along these lines about what you think at a big governmental scale, is there more we can be doing, should be doing, to help support people?

PREET: Look, I’m not a mental health expert, but I’ve come across this issue obviously in my work, among the various cases that we do, we we interposed ourselves in a lawsuit against the City of New York and the Department of Corrections with respect to Rikers Island and the treatment of adolescents, and it’s not gotten better unfortunately. You hear stories in the news about how terrible it is. But one of the most stunning findings, to my mind, was that I think the figure was something like 43 percent of the younger people who were being held at Rikers Island had some mental health issues. Forty three percent. And in a lot of crime, and a lot of social issues that we talk about, come back to the lack of provision of mental health services and I know I know friends, and we have members of the family and friends over the course of years, who need help and in many of those cases they’re people of means. A lot of mental health care providers are not covered by insurance or they don’t take insurance because they’re so inundated with demand for their services and it adds up. It’s an enormous amount of money, and some of these things people seeking treatment for, you know, are are important but they’re not so debilitating as to be ruinous if not immediately treated, and you have people in the country, through no fault of their own, who have potentially ruinous mental health issues that are just not being treated all, and it’s sending people to prison and it’s sending people to the morgue. So, I’m all in favor of it.  if you think the plan is a good one, that’s great, I haven’t studied it closely. But I think we were woefully, woefully inadequate in thinking about mental health. We do not treat those issues that depending on the particulars of it can be much more devastating than an ordinary physical health issue.

LISA: Yeah, and in fact, I mean talking about silver linings in the pandemic. If the fact that we all now talk about mental health. There’s an awareness of the mental health crisis. There’s governmental support for really overhauling how we talk and think about mental health, the kind of care that’s provided, how it gets funded, that would be a great outcome from the pandemic.

REENA: Preet, I want to ask you, you know, in this book, you talk a little bit about how it’s never too early to talk about fairness and most kids you experience what it’s like, fairness, or not fair with your siblings very early on in preschool. How do you hope this book will help kids understand justice? Because sometimes when you get justice, I’m sure you’ve litigated many cases where the outcome isn’t necessarily guaranteed to be the one that you want.

PREET: Yeah, so I think a couple things. People will ask me the question, what does it mean to you? And I always say, you know thousands and thousands of humans have spent lifetimes studying the issue and no one fully agrees and it goes back to before the Greeks, right? So lifetimes of study by lawyers, jurists, moral philosophers. Aristotle is not the first person to contemplate the issue. I do think, with respect to children, a couple of things. One, as I mentioned, the book does not do like an exegesis on what justice is as a concept. It sort of introduces you to the concept by making available to you the stories and the identities of some people who fought for justice. So, for example a child will see Malala, and it’s a little bit disturbing, and we don’t depict anything insensitive, but Malala was shot in the head and left for dead because he was fighting for the right of children to get an education, and I imagine that the average American child would wonder aloud, what are you talking about? What do you mean girls are not allowed to get educated in some parts of the world? Girls are people just like boys are, and that would awaken in them not just a sense of justice, but in fact sometimes first the sense of injustice, right? You know it’s not always clear to me, and maybe you know the answer to this question, Lisa, as a developmental matter. What comes first? People’s sense of justice? Or people’s sense of outrage, unfairness and injustice, which then leads to the concept of justice? My conjecture would be it’s maybe the latter, and to the extent it’s the latter, the way I think parents might explain these issues is there was a wrong that was happening. Where was slavery. Slavery was this terrible thing in which human beings because of what they looked like we’re treated as property, like your table, and that’s got to be shocking to a child because it actually makes me makes no sense, and then you explain, you know, that’s a bad thing. That’s injustice. And what would be justice? Well the elimination of that practice and here’s some people who fought to eliminate that practice and we owe a large debt of gratitude to them. So, I think individually with respect to each of those stories and what the wrong that was being,  almost  in every instance there’s some wrong, there was injustice that was being fought against, not just some happy society, and somebody stood out as in a generalized way to advocate for even greater fairness and redistribution or whatever the case may be. These are people actively fighting evil things.

LISA: I love the way you put it, and my hunch is that you’re absolutely right. Okay, so easy question.

PREET: Uh oh. That’s famous last words.

LISA: I know, I know. Okay, so we parents want to raise good citizens. We want to raise kids who understand justice and democracy and do what’s right. How can we be helping? What can parents be doing?

PREET: I think if people don’t feel good about themselves, they’re more likely to be drawn into some bad enterprise because they think maybe that will make me feel better about myself. Belonging is very important to people, but if you get up and involved in a bad crowd, whether it’s with people who are storming the capitol or anything else, the thing that prevents that from happening in part is your own sense of self worth. You know, you belong to yourself before you belong to anyone else. I believe that.

LISA: I love that. That’s beautiful. You belong to yourself before you belong to anyone else. I love that.

REENA: Preet is just someone who really believes so strongly in democracy, justice, our legal system, journalism, so I couldn’t imagine a better person to come on the podcast today to talk about this and to write this book. I absolutely love it. This is the gift you want to give at everybody’s birthday parties. I’m telling you. Just order a bunch of copies, you don’t have to worry about gifts for birthday parties because birthday parties are coming back now.

PREET: They are. They are indeed.

REENA: They’re coming back. Well, the book is called “Justice Is: A Guide For Young Truth Seekers” and be sure to tune in to Preet’s show, which is fantastic, his podcast called “Stay Tuned,” where you can get more of his insidery, legal takes on the world, and Preet, by the way, if you want to meet him in person, he’s got a couple of live events that are really interesting. Preet, tell us about that.

PREET: So, we have a live podcast. The first one since before the pandemic. It’s been a couple of years and we’re doing that on March 31st at the town hall in midtown Manhattan. That’s a Thursday evening and we have an amazing guest, someone I’ve admired for a long time, bring some levity and also some seriousness to the conversation, actor and director Ben Stiller.

REENA: Ooooh.

PREET: If you want to come hang out with me and Ben Stiller, go to cafe(dot)(com)(slash) events.

REENA: Fantastic. We’ll have all of this, including how to buy Preet’s book in our show notes. So, be sure to check it out. Preet Bharara, so grateful you could join us.

PREET: Thanks for having me.

LISA: Thank you so much, and thank you for the work you’ve done.

PREET: Thank you.

REENA: Oh, it was so great to have Preet on. Lisa, what do you have for use for parenting to go this week?

LISA: You know as Preet was talking about adults going along with things that they shouldn’t do, I was thinking how much it’s true that sometimes kids and teenagers do the same thing, and to help our kids stay on the right track, I think one thing that we can say to them is, whatever else happens, you have to feel all right with yourself. So, don’t do anything that you’re not going to be able to feel comfortable with or that’s going to keep you up at night. I think that’s the way that we can continue to drive home the message about what it means to do the right thing.

REENA: You never know what’s going to register in the minds of kids. It’s great to keep talking about these things.

LISA: Absolutely.

REENA: And next week, we’re going to talk about what do you do when you find text messages from your child that they don’t know that you know about? Should you confront them? I’ll see you back next week?

LISA: See you next week.