How Do I Help My Daughter Get Past an Ugly Rumor?

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Reena Ninan:

Episode 194. How Do I Help My Daughter Get Past an Ugly Rumor? 

Alright, today’s episode is bringing me back to my middle school years. I have to tell you why is it that kids I feel in middle school would just make up stuff that could be so damaging, even if it’s not true?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

The why is an important one. It probably has to do with social power. The what of it? We call this relational aggression as opposed to physical aggression, and it’s where kids use social forces to hurt one another. And relational aggression tends to take a couple forms. One is excluding, icing kids out, and the other is spreading rumors about them.

Reena Ninan:

I want to get right to this letter. 

Dear Dr. Lisa, a group of popular girls who used to be my ninth grade daughter’s friends have turned on her and are spreading an ugly rumor that she gave blow jobs to two boys from another school on the same night. The quote “queen bee” in the group has a lot of social power, and so no one will stand up for my daughter, even though she has former friends who know the rumor isn’t true. My daughter’s now isolated at school, has a terrible but untrue reputation and is devastated. She doesn’t want to switch schools and nothing I’m doing seems to help her. Can you please offer any guidance? Thank you. 

Is this, first off, Lisa, is it a common thing that you’re seeing and hearing?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I wouldn’t say it’s common, right? There are things I hear all the time, this is not in the category of things I hear about all the time, but having done what I do for three decades, I’ve heard more than a few stories like this where a rumor gets started often about a girl and often a sexualized rumor, one that is damaging to her reputation. 

I just said a whole bunch of stuff that we just have to stand back and unpack. Okay, reputations in girls, they are still a thing. They should not be a thing. This is a double standard. And then underneath that, the fact that you can damage a girl by spreading a sexual story in a way that you cannot damage a boy and in fact might actually give him points. 

Reena Ninan:

Totally. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

So yeah, this goes on and it is heartbreaking. I mean, just hearing this letter, my heart just breaks for this kid because it is so painful. 

Reena Ninan:

Or I remember in middle school where somebody will say something about scrawny legs, somebody and then that nickname sticks, even though it might not necessarily be true, but someone with social power as this parent is explaining the letter uses it and everyone just laughs and thinks it’s funny and it sticks and it’s hard to shake. But this letter is even more, I mean, devastating, right? 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah. But you’re right. I mean this stuff goes on. I think lots of people can think back to something that was done or said in middle school that felt horrible to them and that they’ve never forgotten. But interestingly, if you think about that, do you remember this happening to kids around you or do people mostly remember what happened to them? Right. That’s I think an interesting question for us to just put out there.

Reena Ninan:

I want to step back for a second and ask you for stuff. Why do you think someone would start a rumor like this that is totally untrue and sexualized? 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Okay, so there’s, based on having watched these dynamics over time, there’s a few different reasons at play. One is sometimes it has to do with romantic jealousies. I have seen this done with the term queen bee is used in this letter like a girl who wield a lot of social power and wields it in pretty aggressive ways, may feel like somebody is challenging her for a romantic interest or may like the guy she likes if she’s heterosexual. And so she may damage her competition by spreading nasty rumors about them as a way to maintain or regain space in sort of the sexualized world among teenagers. And I will tell you, there is a lot of power in being a girl who has access to guys and who guys are interested in and who is desirable in that way. And so I could see a kid who’s struggling with power and struggling to handle it well damaging what feels to be a competitor. So that would be one reason.

Reena Ninan:

So they feel the competition, and this is the way to squash the competition, is just lie about it and get people to believe that it’s true.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah, say terrible things.

The other reason that we sometimes see rumors spreading, and this is just so stupid, I can hardly stand it, is kids get bored. That is actually a reason for bullying is that some kids get bored and so they just start something. I will tell you something, as vicious as this feels to me like it goes above just boredom, it feels like there’s probably more of a dynamic underneath it, but sometimes kids will just go after a kid with a lot of power, will just pull in a mob and go after somebody just to have something to do, which is, I cannot tell you how awful that is, but it is true.

Reena Ninan:

It’s good to know. I mean, it’s good to know that that is actually one of the reasons why when you’re explaining to your kid that it could very well happen because I just can’t imagine as a teen having to face something that there is no kernel of truth to this, right? How do you explain that to a kid who’s just lost their entire reputation and likely will be stuck in this community for at least four more years?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah, right. And it’s interesting, as you said, no kernel of truth. I’m like, okay, but what if it were true? Does she still deserve to be exiled in this way? I mean, I think that we can also think our ways through both paths, but either way, true or not true, this girl is being shunned, mistreated for something that either at best is untrue. Or we could also say, I don’t even want to say best. I don’t even want to put a value judgment around. It could say like nobody’s business, right? She’s allowed to do what she wants to do. We could also make that argument, but no matter what, she’s being harmed and she’s been iced out and she has no one at school. I think that’s what the letter said was just like, oh, okay, so what do we do? 

I think as the loving adult around this, we help this young person find someone to eat lunch with, someone to be with. What is of value in this letter in terms of things that we can put to good use is it sounds like a lot of people don’t really believe that this happened

Or don’t agree with how she’s being treated around this having happened. And so at least she’s got that as leverage. And the thing about queen bees like this is that people know often that what they’re saying isn’t true, but as the letter said, they’re scared of them. But one thing that is potentially in this girl’s favor over time is that people know that the kid who started the rumor is spreading the rumor, probably made it up, know that that kid is dangerous, so they won’t take her on, which is unfortunate, but what that opens up as a pathway for this kid who’s on the receiving end of this rumor is that she can find people who may not be in her old friendship group who may not care at all about social power, who may not care at all about staying on the queen bees good side and hopefully build a bridge with them so that she’s got some company while this sorts out in the broader social landscape over time,

Reena Ninan:

You say in this situation where this teen’s reputation has totally been damaged and she’s lost her friends, help her find some sort of a friend, but you’ve also said in the past you really can’t engineer friendships. So what’s a parent to do?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

It’s a tough one. So I think you do say, is there anybody you like going to hang out with? Maybe you were friends in middle school and now you can kind of reconnect a little bit here in the ninth grade. If the kid’s like, no, no, no, I’ve got nobody, nothing. I think then my advice always is get that kid into some new activities, get that kid into new traffic patterns, have her sign up to work on the crew for theater, have her try out a new sport, have her do some clubs, some afterschool activity. That’s another thing. If I think about all of the things in the negative column, there’s a lot in the plus column, there’s a lot of stuff to do in the ninth grade, right? Ninth grade is suddenly club bonanza in both schools. And so this sweet child needs to find a club that is of interest to her, or a group may find kids who share her interests and try to tuck in and she doesn’t need a whole new friendship group. She needs one or two buddies.

Reena Ninan:

Lisa, you were saying a little bit like she’s in the ninth grade. The good news is there are clubs in all sorts of activities that she can now be part of, but I’m thinking the reverse, she is just starting high school with this. How do you help kids see past what seems like the world has officially ended for them? 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

It’s tough, right? And I say this all the time. Teen years are like dog years, a year for them as seven years for us. So it does feel like forever. What I will say is that the fact that they’re transitioning to the ninth grade means that this kind of behavior should not go on that much longer. What I mean by that is when kids are willing to be mean, and especially there are some kids, and it’s not just girls all the time by any measure who will throw around a lot of social power in terrible ways like has happened here. Their classmates will sort of cower in the seventh grade, cower in the eighth grade, be nervous around that kid in the ninth grade and by the old schedule. And I’ll come back to what I mean by that. By 10th grade, kids are over it and they do not allow queen bees to make up rumors and tell lies, queen bees or king bees, whatever you got in that grade, by 10th grade kids are like stop.

And often if that kid is still doing it, they themselves become isolated. The kid who has been mean actually ends up on the outs. 

Reena Ninan:

Wow. 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Now that’s the old schedule. One of the things that I am hearing across the board in schools is that the pandemic delayed the typical social trajectories we were used to. So I was doing old math with seventh, eighth, ninth being as long as you could get away with being mean and then it ending by 10th grade. I have heard if I’ve heard one thing consistently from schools in the wake of the pandemic is, oh my god, the ninth graders feel like seventh graders still. You still feel like that’s the case? I’m not sure. I think that’s a really key question. I know it was definitely true a year and a half ago. I do think it’s probably less true over time as kids are able, kids coming into the ninth grade had a more typical seventh grade experience hopefully. But I am the eternal optimist. I am the glass half full person. I think if we’re really, really honest about kids in schools, we are still seeing pandemic after effects. No question. 

Reena Ninan:

So what options, Lisa, do you think this girl has right now? What would you advise them?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

The other thing I would say to this girl is continue to stand up for reality to the degree that this comes up around you or somebody makes a joke about it, be prepared to say that’s not true. You know it’s a lie.

Reena Ninan:

But oh my gosh, when it’s the queen bee and you’re not quite at that 10th grade phase you’re talking about, I mean I don’t think even me as a 45-year-old woman would have the strength in ninth grade to go back and stand up. So how do you build that courage in your child to take their life back?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Well, I’m not sure she’s going to get the life back that she had, but I do think the queen bee, she’s already done with the queen bee, the queen bee’s already done with her. There’s no need or possibility of repairing the relationship with the queen bee. So I think there is value in this kid making it very clear it’s not true. That’s a lie. She doesn’t have to say that that girl spreads. I mean she doesn’t need to deepen it, but it’s not like she’s trying to repair things with the queen bee. So I think it is worth coaching her to just be very matter of fact and very direct if it comes up around her. And of course that’s the big if, right? The chances are much more likely that it’s going to be whispering down the lane when she’s not there. But to the degree that she wants to try to reach out to the old friends who have aligned with the queen bee, I think she can also say, you guys know what’s not true? What’s a lie? I miss you. And she can try to see if they will peel off and come her way. But as painful as this is for her, I think the more matter of fact and dismissive of the rumor she can be probably the better.

Reena Ninan:

And not to be afraid of it just to kind of face it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I think to hide the distress around it as much as she can. I hate to say that, but if it’s in person, just be like, that is not true. That is a lie. And then just try to carry on. But there’s going to be a lot of tears no matter what. 

Reena Ninan:

But if they’re not saying it to her face, but everyone’s whispering about it, you can’t really confront it. So is there another way that she could get what’s truthful out there circulating? What’s your experience in these situations that you feel really helps?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I do wonder, right? So in my dream scenario, she’s like, actually I’ve always been wanting to get into knitting and there’s a knitting club. And in my dream scenario, she goes to the knitting club and there’s a bunch of wonderful kids there and she finds one or two that she can enjoy. And in my dream scenario, it may be that she gets to a place where she’s close enough with them or they’re close enough with her where they’re like, oh my God, that thing that was said about you. And she can be like, I know it’s not true. It’s a lie. That’s how that person rolls. And she can try to set the record straight from there. But I think these are things that you want to give them as little oxygen as possible. And so taking a kind of clean and firm line about what the reality is while going and finding new people to be with is probably her best bet. Not that it’s great, but better maybe than the alternatives.

Reena Ninan:

I’ve heard so many times in the corporate world, people say that success is the best revenge. And I wonder, is it possible at that age to get kids to sort of channel that into something that they can excel in or is that too much to ask because that’s just not where they are emotionally?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I love that question, right? You’re like, how do we build this child up? How do we help her feel good about herself?

Reena Ninan:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

So I think yes, I think there’s an element where you can say to her, look, you have so many talents, you have so many skills, you’re an incredible person. Like this dumb social thing happened and yeah, it’s harming you socially right now. I’m not going to deny it, but look at how good you are in math and look at what an incredible knitter you are. I mean, whatever it is, I think that’s worth doing. You hear the giant hesitation, the giant, but in my kind of sentence to come. But here’s the thing, Reena, and this is something we have seen consistently. If you are a teenager, you need a viable social life. It does not matter if you are curing cancer at your summer job. It does not matter if all the adults adore you. Teenagers need to have age mates who they feel good with. And we’ve seen this, we’ve seen socially isolated kids who are thriving by every other measure. They’re still suffering tremendously because they’re socially isolated. So it doesn’t hurt to do well in other domains, but it can’t make up for being pushed out. 

Reena Ninan:

And I like to reinforce, you always say you just need one. You don’t need a huge network of friends. You need one good friend. You just need one good friend,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

One good friend. 

I think the other thing that we can try to offer in situations like this, and I say this a lot, is adult perspective. So many people had stupid harmful rumors spread about them at some point along the way in middle or high school. And I think you can probably find family friends who were like, oh my God, yes, this totally happened to me. Or you can find the parent themselves maybe able to say like, oh yeah, this happened to me or it happened to a friend of mine. And for us to be able to say, look, it’s really lousy and it feels lousy even to remember it, but it didn’t change my life. It didn’t knock me off course. It didn’t keep me from finding the person I wanted to be with and having the career I wanted. Those can seem like obvious and small to us. I think they could help a ninth grader who may feel like this is it. Everything’s ruined, right? To sort of say, no, this is lousy, but your life will be unchanged by this in terms of choices you can make going forward.

Reena Ninan:

So acknowledging this is lousy and keep showing the other side even though they might not be ready, but you may be saying it makes them feel possibly that there’s something else that we’re going to get past this at some point, even though it doesn’t feel like that’s ever going to happen.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

You have to say it because I think she will get past this. This is not going to define her life. I mean that’s the nice.

Reena Ninan:

But in the ninth grade, it’s like your world has just ended. I can understand exactly why she’s saying that. Lisa, do you feel like there’s something else the mom could do?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I think it’s actually as you just said, what you said about yeah, the world’s ending and also we need to stick up for the fact that she will sort her way through this queen bee may damage herself so much by doing this that eventually she’s less of a problem. I mean, there’s ways that this will play out. I think that what the loving adult around this child can do is to sit in that tension of acknowledging how painful this is while also taking a stance of, and you’re going to get past this and you’re going to be okay, and I don’t know exactly what it’s going to look like, but I know for sure you’re going to be okay. This is not going to define you. I think it’s holding those two things together and one of my favorite analogies is the lyrics and the tune and the lyrics are the words we say. The tune is how we say the words and it’s how we manage these moments of tremendous tension of both acknowledging the depth of it and also feeling hopeful. 

When the parent says, this stinks, it’s true, right? This is really lousy and I know you’re going to get past this. I know you’re going to find your way. You’re going to do things, other forces are going to come in that are going to get you through this. Overall, even the words I was saying, lousy instincts, I was saying them in kind of an I see a path through an out way. Whereas if the parent is like, oh my gosh, this is awful, this is lousy, right? There, you hear the tune making the kid feel like, oh my gosh, I can’t come back from this

Reena Ninan:

When there’s been a horrible ugly rumor spread about your child. And especially if it’s untrue, should you go to the school?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

This is a really key question because certainly this either is or could be said to rise to the level of bullying. Bullying is where a kid is on the receiving end of mistreatment and unable to defend themselves. Bullying is deeply problematic and schools also should deal with it both because it’s wrong and also because legally they’re usually mandated to deal with it if they are aware of it. So if you were to take it to the school, you probably would have a reasonable expectation of getting some traction, which isn’t to say that school’s always going to handle it well, you’re introducing a whole lot of variables, but the big barrier, and I think in this letter is the kid’s like, please don’t, please don’t. And this is where ninth grade is really tricky because by ninth grade kids, it does feel like if you tattle that, that is only going to make it worse for you and they’re not necessarily wrong. And so I wouldn’t bring it up with a school without this kid coming to agreement on that. So I think it’s if the kid’s asking for that, by all means consider it. 

Reena Ninan:

But if they’re not, you really should pay attention and not…

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah, take it seriously.

Reena Ninan:

…charge forward like a bull into that school office, which is what I personally feel like I want to do.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I think a lot of parents would feel that way of like, who’s going to get these kids under control? And this is harming my kid and it’s not true. I’m not saying that’s off the table, but I think you don’t want to do it without your kid’s buy-in because think about this kid is already suffering so much and then if they’re like, oh my gosh, and you called the school, right? That we’re trying to make it better for this kid.

Reena Ninan:

So when you stand back on something like this and you see your kid just really struggling and it’s unfair, what should we as parents remember and keep in mind what really helps in these moments if the goal is to get them to a better place, your child to a better place?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I think actually on this one, we should remember that distraction is a valuable form of coping. That this is a situation that there’s not a whole lot this kid can do right away to make it better. I mean, this is going to be a multi-step plan and counting on time, doing its good work. While she is struggling through this, do what one can to keep her from just spinning her wheels in it, ruminating about it, making herself feel worse by just thinking and thinking about it. So there may be times when you’re like, you know what? Let’s watch Despicable Me One again. We haven’t seen it for a really long time. That is an intervention in this and we don’t want to lose sight of it.

Reena Ninan:

Well, this letter made me angry. I think a lot of us have been through, maybe not this exact scenario, but we know what it’s like and it never leaves you. It never leaves you even into your adulthood. You feel that when you hear about it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

No, it’s true. I think for a lot of parents things like this, poke at old bruises, which makes it that much more painful. 

Reena Ninan:

So what do you have, Lisa, for Parenting To Go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Well, you just said the word anger, and I actually want to come back to how mad a parent would feel if this were happening. And I think we want to be really, really careful when we’re angry with a kid and angry with a kid in our community. I would strongly encourage parents to the degree that they’re, I would be furious with this queen bee. I’d want her name and number. I would feel that way.

But we have to remember, these are kids and communities are small, and kids do really dumb and really mean things and they still grow up to be wonderful people. And so I think that if we need to talk bad about somebody else’s kid, which sometimes we really feel we need to do, we maybe do that quietly, privately in our own home with our partner or we call a sibling in Seattle and have it out with them. But I would encourage adults who find themselves in this situation to not get on the school WhatsApp for a lengthy discourse on somebody else’s child.

Reena Ninan:

Boy is that hard. Let me tell you, when your kid is struggling and you really want to nip this in the bud and get justice, it’s hard, but it’s a great reminder. Lisa, thank you so, so much. I’m glad we dealt with this one because I think there are a lot of parents who have gone through something like this and know what it’s like.