How Do I Parent with an Ex Who Doesn’t Share My Values?

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Reena Ninan:
Episode 211, How Do I Parent with an Ex Who Doesn’t Share My Values?
I dunno if I’ve ever told you this. My kids are a quarter Irish.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I did not know that.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah, my mother-in-law’s Irish and we love St. Patrick’s Day. We love to wear green. She would always send us stuff to get us into the holidays and I love eating Irish soda bread, even though it might be just an Indian American girl tried to hang on to someone else’s traditions that aren’t really traditions.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Oh, Reena. So I’m not Irish. My husband, actually both of his parents are Irish. Really? So my daughters are kind of half Irish. I guess they are. But what you just reminded me of that Irish soda bread one time when I was a kid, my mom made corn beef for St. Patrick’s Day and my mom is an extraordinary cook and somebody’s very organized and this was very unusual. What happened? She left the house and left the corn beef on on the stove.

Reena Ninan:
Oh my gosh.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And so it cooked all day, which it kind of does anyway, but it cooked way, way, way, way too long. And basically it was like a lump of coal in the bottom of the pot. And the impact of that was that the house was sort of smokey corn beef smelling for literally months, literally months. You came in the house and you’re like, oh yeah, that was the St. Patrick’s Day incident that happened here. So luckily nothing went wrong, but that’s actually the only time she’s ever messed up food. She’s extremely good cook. Really? Yeah.

Reena Ninan:
Did she ever redo corn beef again or was that one

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think we were kind of done with it at that point.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Well, Lisa, today we’re talking about a subject that I think we get a lot of emails about, and I’m sure everyone has questions about how do you deal with an ex or a spouse or a partner or family members who just really don’t share your values. And I’m going to read you this letter.
Hi Dr. Lisa. My question revolves around co-parenting. When I married my ex, I thought we were on the same trajectory as far as values and what our family life would look like. Unfortunately, after we had children, it was made abundantly clear that we were on different paths. Now that we’re divorced and living separate lives, some of the values that I have around kindness and acceptance and structures and boundaries are not mirrored in the other household.
In fact, I can confidently say that there are racist comments, homophobia and little structure. Do you have any advice on how to handle that when your children have two parents on different ends of the value spectrum? I will not be disrespectful towards their dad. I know they love him and respect him. So how do I walk that line of teaching my values without alienating anybody or making them feel ashamed or confusing them? Thank you so much.
What really stood out to me in this letter is that this parent is not going to shame the other side because I have to be honest, sometimes shaming the other side is an easy thing to do.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It is very impressive. The restraint being described here and we’re not talking about things that are neutral. I mean, she’s saying there’s racist comments, there’s homophobic comments going on, and so I think to date and the care being taken is important, but I think it does raise a question about, well total restraint. Do you never say anything? It’s a really great letter. I feel like I got to say something. How do I do it?

Reena Ninan:
I love this approach. I want to acknowledge that she’s doing great. But is there a point where you need to tell your kids what’s happening in that house? I don’t agree with. Can you do that in a way that doesn’t go back to the dad and make that parent angry?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay, so there’s two questions there. One is, do you ever say we’re on different pages or I feel critical of the choices that your other parent is making. And then the question is, does it get back to the other parent? Starting with the second question of does it get back to the other parent? I have a very strong hunch that given that they did not stay married, this would not come as a big surprise to the other parent that the, it’s a mom and a dad in this situation that the mom is not in agreement with the comments that are being made. So to me, it getting back to the other parent doesn’t feel like something we want to, I think it’s an issue, but that’s probably not the most salient. I think for me it’s the question of how do you talk about the fact that you have real problems with the ex and their values in a way that still supports that person as a parent. I mean that’s the real challenge in these co-parenting situations, which is we broke up for a reason, we disagree about a lot of things, and yet that is your other parent. And fundamentally, you don’t want to undercut the other parent because it’s your kid’s parent. So that’s the delicate dance that needs to be done. I think it can be done, but boy is it not easy.

Reena Ninan:
Tell me how this looks in an elementary age child versus junior high school or high school. Is there a different approach for these ages?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think there is because what we’re already starting to articulate is that you actually have to manage this very, very delicate situation of saying I don’t agree with elements of what that person believes and says. And yet I also can be supportive of that person as a parent and also what’s inherent. And sometimes you’ll have to make it explicit and we’ll talk about this and I support your love of that parent. I mean, I think that that’s the thing that we can’t lose sight of in co-parenting situations when we are critical of the other parent. It can’t help but feel to the kid, well then you’re not okay with the part of me that loves that parent and that’s not what we want to communicate. So needless to say, when I say this is delicate, this is incredibly delicate. You’re trying to hold together a few very competing things at once.
So then it gets to the question of how old do kids have to be for you to communicate that sort of subtlety successfully? And I think frankly they have to be probably late elementary, middle to hold together this idea of two competing emotions side by side. I don’t like what he said and I also am fine with you loving him, right? I mean that those are very much in conflict. What often works well with little kids when they are moving between values systems is to do something like this. Say the second grader has picked up some language either from the dad’s house or elsewhere that is unacceptable to the mom. Say that the kid says something offensive, racist, homophobic. A first step, and it may be good enough for a while, is to say to that kid at this house, we don’t talk that way.

Reena Ninan:
So you send the message that you don’t approve of that behavior which might be acceptable somewhere else without saying to their face what they’re doing over there is not good.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
That’s exactly right. And so it’s the beginning of a boundary. You’re not just letting it happen. You’re not tacitly endorsing it with your silence. And I think that is developmentally something a kid can start to make sense of. Okay, there are different rules at these different houses. That’s step one that we’re trying to establish. Rules are different in the two houses and what goes on at one house isn’t the same as what goes on at another house. Kids need clarity around that. And that of course you can elaborate on that over time about why we have the rules we have. And I think there is actually a way as kids age to share one’s opinion of the other parent, even if it’s not positive. I think there’s a way to do it, but the foundational piece for little kids is in this house, we don’t talk that way.

Reena Ninan:
Should there be a absolutely zero no badmouthing rule when it comes to your ex in a divorce?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
You may be surprised to hear this. I think there are ways to express one’s criticism of the co-parent that are not bad.

Reena Ninan:
How is that possible where you could do it, it’s hard and badmouth your ex without it being bad?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So badmouthing, if we grow with that phrase just sort of being loosely critical, I don’t think you should do that. I think it should be careful and well thought through. This gets to the sort of developmental piece of this. So maybe with little kids you just say, in our house we don’t say things like that. You just make it clear that once you walk in this door, the rules change and these are my rules. What is going to be true as kids get into middle school and high school, they are smart kids who are picking up information in the world. They’re going to suddenly be like, whoa. Not only are the rules different, dad says stuff like this. Mom is not okay with stuff like that. Dad’s views are here, mom’s views are there. It’s not like they don’t know. It’s not. They’re not aware of this difference and they’re not unaware of what it means in the world. Here’s what I’ll tell you doesn’t help kids. And this happens in a well-meaning way and I don’t recommend it when kids are perfectly aware that there is an issue between the parents or perfectly aware that one parent is critical of the other and they are not given any reality at check on that. So for instance, so I’m picturing a 14-year-old who’s like mom, dad used this word, what do you think of that? A 14-year-old could totally do that if in the context of this letter the parent were like, I don’t really have an opinion on that. People use different words. If the parent were basically to work so hard to not badmouth the other parent as to actually just not even be honest, the 14 year old’s going to be like, oh, come on.

Reena Ninan:
They get it. They get it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So the moment there is where you say something along the lines of this can work, which is to say, look, there is a lot your dad and I do not agree on. That’s a big part of why we’re not married anymore. I mean you have just being

Reena Ninan:
Straight just telling your kids straight, this is part of the reason we’re not together.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And I got to tell you, I don’t agree with him on that. I don’t agree with him about talking and thinking about people that way. I don’t agree with him on the use of that language. And then if you can in pretty short order say, but there’s also a lot of parts of your dad that I like and respect. I wouldn’t have married him in the first place if that wasn’t true. And he’s your other parent and you love him and I want you to love him and I’m here to support your relationship with him.

Reena Ninan:
So are you saying if you badmouth also having that counter to explain, yes, I don’t agree with this, but also just to let you know, we ended up together, we had you. This is also a good thing.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And so if you are going to say something critical, I’m just going to call it saying something critical to me that feels a little more careful and deliberate than bad mouthing. If you’re going to say something critical, do it as basically, I’m going to say this so your kid doesn’t feel like they’re losing their minds because if a kid can see, I know what’s going on over there is either not okay or certainly not okay with my mom. If a kid can see that and then they come to the mom and they’re like, Hey, what do you think? And mom’s like, oh gosh, I don’t know. It makes the kid feel nuts. It makes the kid feel really uncomfortable.

Reena Ninan:
It’s inauthentic, right? It’s not real.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Then they’re like, okay, well then who’s telling me the truth?

Reena Ninan:
Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
But they have to be, I think 13, 14, you’ll know the sophistication of your kid to say, look, there’s a lot your dad says and does. I don’t agree with that’s why we’re not together. And also people are complicated. There are good aspects of your dad and you love your dad. I want you to love your dad and if it weren’t for your dad, I wouldn’t have you. So there’s a lot here that I can feel good about.

Reena Ninan:
A few seasons ago we did a full episode on divorce, which I think by the way, we should do another one. There’s never enough. There’s so many issues to talk about on divorce, but is there ever a moment where it’s worth confronting your ex? And I know divorce can be complicated, it can be absolutely bitter and contentious and there’s no communication beyond what’s absolutely needed and required by law. But what do you do in that circumstance regardless of what your relationship might be?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So there’s talking directly to the kid, but then there Sure. It’s a fair question of is it worth saying to the other parent, I don’t feel good about what you’re saying and I want you to stop or I disagree. Here I will entirely defer to people’s knowledge of who they were married to.

Reena Ninan:
Okay. It’s almost like you’re saying you kind of know deep down inside how to approach this.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Whether it’s going to be useful or not, and what we know from the research Reena, it’s actually really interesting. So the divorce rate was pretty low until the seventies and then it grew. And so then of course a whole bunch of research was done at that time to try to think what is the impact on kids when their families split up? This is an oversimplification, but it’s not inaccurate. When we compiled all of the data, the thing that did damage, if damage was done was conflict between the parents.

Reena Ninan:
Is that right?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah, it was not. Did they switch schools? Not even necessarily switch visitation schedules. We looked at a lot of different measures. The big factor was whether or not the parents remained in open conflict with one another over time. And the key word here being open, which is a lot of parents who are separated or divorced continue to have issues with each other.
If they can handle those on their own time and be really civil in front of the kids or around the kids or about one another in front of the kids, fine things do need to get worked out. And obviously you’re working with somebody who you haven’t always gotten along with. So of course there’s going to be conflict, but if there is a risk that saying something to another parent about what they’re doing is going to turn into a blow up and it’s going to cause them to talk badly about you to the kids fighting in front of the kids between the two of you, the research does not recommend it. I do not recommend it.

Reena Ninan:
And what is it? Is it just that it creates a heightened level of anxiety also the kids are experiencing the tension? What is it that when you are in conflict with your ex, what does it do to your child when it’s that stressful?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Oh, that is really the key question. Okay, so anxiety and stress for sure. But Reena, you only have your parents. You only have your parents. And to watch your parents who you love go at each other is just exquisitely painful for kids. Really painful. Actually, it’s funny, I hadn’t thought about this for a while, but I’m not much of a saver. I don’t hold on to things much. I am pretty good at moving on and throwing stuff away. One thing I was going through some files the other day, and I found this again, literally Reena, literally 30 years ago. I took care of a little boy. It was when I was in training whose parents were divorcing. That’s why he was my patient and they were just really, really angry with each other and openly fighting all the time and I was trying to care for this little boy through it. We got to the point where our psychotherapy was wrapping up and he was like eight or nine, and he came to his last session with a present for me, and I may choke up in telling you this. The present Reena was a war medal he had made. He found camouflage fabric and sewed it together with a button.
And brought me this sort of kid crafted medal as a gift to me as a thank you, but it was a war medal and that’s what he told me it was that he had gone through a war and I had helped him and of course barely held it together when he did it. So if you want to know what it feels like for kids when parents are in conflict with each other, I don’t know that anything can capture it more aptly than that. That’s what that little boy made.

Reena Ninan:
Wow. And how old was he?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
He’s like eight. Eight or nine.

Reena Ninan:
But he was still able to process and understand this is war.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
This is war. And this is what I’ve been through. So that just for what it’s worth, if you cannot fight with your ex in front of your kids, everything we know tells us that’s going to be better for your kids. You can have disagreements on your own time. I will tell you interestingly, in the time I was training, email came on the scene.

Reena Ninan:
Oh, interesting.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Email was the best thing that ever happened to divorce families because it used to be that they had to talk and it could get hot really fast, whereas email could keep things a little bit quieter.

Reena Ninan:
Okay, well actually I legally worry about emails because you send angry things and texts and that can now be used.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, that helped a lot. That was actually helpful because it helped people to be more civil in their email exchanges, knowing full well this could all end up in a court record. So not only did families not have to talk to each other in person and let things blow up if they were going to, it also constrained people’s behavior in communication because there was now a written record. So yeah, unexpected benefits of technology. Email was the best thing that ever happened to divorcing and separating families.

Reena Ninan:
That’s so interesting. I wouldn’t have thought
So what about disagreements? Structures, boundaries, rules. What should she do about that?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay, so we have things at different levels. We have racism and homophobia and then we also, I also don’t agree with basic boundaries and structures in the other parent’s home. So the hate, I’m going to call it the hate behavior, I think does need to be addressed and does need to be addressed head on and with little kids, it’ll be the way I recommended of just making a boundary in one’s own home. With older kids, I think state your values be very clear and be very clear that they’re in disagreement with the other parents’ values. A lot of families who are two parent homes are going to have this other issue, which is at a different level, which is we respect bedtimes in my home. The kids clean up their dishes in my home. It’s predictable, it’s structured, and in that other home it feels like chaos to me and I don’t like it. That is a very, very common dynamic in two home families.

Reena Ninan:
So this is not unusual. If you’re dealing with this, you are not the only one.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Oh no.

Reena Ninan:
You see this more often.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
People don’t like it, right? I mean, especially if you’re the one who has more rigid rules. But also I will tell you, the person who has less rigid rules, they often feel like, oh my gosh, that other too structured. It’s like it’s military over there. It doesn’t need to be like that. We can have more fun, we can be more playful. To the degree that I’m going to judge on this or weigh in on this, we’ve talked about it before, the two things that really benefit kids warmth and structure. Warmth and structure over

Reena Ninan:
Again,

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Lots of love, low chaos. So hat puts a film on the scale for the families who are structured. We know that’s good for kids, but again, it begs the question of how much? What do you do about it? If you don’t like that the other parent doesn’t have the same kind of rules you do, what do you do about it? You can say something if you want, but I would again very carefully assess is it going to make it better or is it just going to cause conflict? Because if it’s just going to cause conflict, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. Okay. Reena question for you. Say that you’re like, it’s just going to cause conflict. There’s no point that I don’t like the bedtime situation, I don’t like the whatever. What do you think you would do if you were in this spot and you had an ex who let your kids stay up late and let them have endless supplies of desserts?

Reena Ninan:
Well, it’s not just that it’ll make ’em upset. It’s that if I say something, it’s not, the behavior’s not going to change. In fact, it might even go more the other way, right?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah.

Reena Ninan:
I just don’t even know how to approach it. But I think I’d have an open conversation with my kids. My kids are in middle school, so we are very straight and honest about where we stand on things kind of. And gosh, I don’t fully know because I think there would be so much anger of fine you don’t have to do parent the same way I do. But you say over and over again, Lisa, bedtimes are important for kids and I see it over and over again myself, let alone my kids. So I’m at a loss. I don’t know how to deal with this.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It’s a tough one. If you’re like, okay, I can’t change that other parent, and yet I also don’t feel good about what they’re doing, and I feel like what they’re doing has real ramifications. This is one of those things that gets easier as kids age. Because with little kids, you can’t really lean on the little kid to be like, you know what? You should probably put yourself to bed at your dad’s house at a reasonable hour. That’s never going to happen. And it’s not fun. It’s not fun to be the parent who’s like, my kid comes home ragged, my kid comes home. That’s not fun. Time is all on one’s side because again, kids become extremely aware that these houses are operating by two different sets of rules. I will say kids can work with this as long as the houses are internally predictable. Kids actually know, oh, I can get away with this at this house.
I can get away with that at that house. Kids are smart, they can adapt. As long as there’s predictability on each side, there does come a time, and I would say by sixth, seventh, eighth grade, this is the beauty of teenagers where the kid comes dragging through the door because the other parent does not put them to bed or require them to go to bed at a reasonable hour where you can say, listen, we got different rules in different houses, you know that, you know I am like the bedtime’s my favorite. I also know that over for the sake of this at your dad’s house, it’s much looser. I watch you come home exhausted. I watch you come home exhausted. I watch you get sick more than I think you should be getting sick. Is there anything you can do about this? Is there anything you want to do about this?
So start to use the kids’ own agency, the kids’ own hopefully growing investment in taking very good care of themselves as your lever to get them to reconsider what’s going on. Now that said, we have to imagine worst case scenarios where the kid’s like, I want to go to bed earlier, but we’re out or we’re at a long dinner. Or if I do, he’s going to give me a hard time about it and say that I’m being like a goody two shoes trying to go to bed early. You have to engage. What would the reality be? If you work to take better care of yourself regardless of which house you’re in, you have to engage what that is going to look like for the kid and take it seriously.

Reena Ninan:
I think that was a game changer just in the past couple months of basketball and my son, and he just felt like his game wasn’t there and I was able to use it in real time and say, but listen, you’ve been going to bed at 10 o’clock every night, you’re eating crap. And this affects an athlete. And I think it got him to rethink. Okay, now I see what she’s saying is she’s just not mom’s stuff, what she’s saying actually have ramifications and started going to bed earlier and

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Absolutely.

Reena Ninan:
Focusing on what he eats.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Absolutely. Show him Reena. Remember how you had Lisa Lewis on about,

Reena Ninan:
Oh, sleep. Episode on sleep.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
She was fabulous. She talked about free throw percentages. I think that’s in her book. Yes. Go get that now. Absolutely. But that’s exactly it, right? That you work from where the kid is and what the kid wants from themselves. And then you walk that back to issues of self-care. And you walk that back to the fact that as they become teenagers, self-care sits with them. It actually is their responsibility to take good care of themselves. And some homes are better at supporting that than others. But you can start to work through the kid a bit and actually leave the other parent out of it altogether when you’re not going sleep. You and I both know that your free throw percentage plummets and you’re a mess. How can I help?

Reena Ninan:
Gosh, lemme tell you. After 45, you’re percentage in dealing with humanity declines crazy.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So true. You don’t. True. I had a bad night the other night. I don’t know why I just couldn’t sleep. Holy moly. I was so grumpy the next day. So grumpy.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only one who cares about me is my dog. Thank God. I always, always crawls up right next to me.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Thank goodness the dogs forgive it all.

Reena Ninan:
Exactly. I want to step back for a second. We got into the nitty gritty, but when you are dealing with an ex or a partner who does not parent the same way as you, what do we have to keep in mind when it comes to sort of the big picture?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think the thing that is the hardest to do, and yet I would also say this is what I would have people focus on, is to really think about the fact that you want to support that parent. The parent who is making you absolutely bananas and doing all sorts of things you don’t want them to do. That is your kid’s other parent. And you want your kid to have two parents who are doing their absolute best for that kid. So anything you want to do. I think the first question is, is there a way I could go about this that would be supportive of that parent? Sometimes the answer is no. And sometimes the answer is things between us are in a place where actually everything goes down at court and every time I’ve got an issue, I’ve got to go to court to try to manage it. And I’m dealing with basic health and safety questions. There are some families who are dealing with that and supporting the other parent isn’t a luxury they really have. But if there is any option of going at one’s wish to make adjustments through the lens of how can I do this in a way that is supportive of that other parent? That’s what my entire field would ask you to do.

Reena Ninan:
There’s a lot to digest here. There is a lot to digest here. I think sometimes it’s just working through the anger and the frustration and when you feel what you are doing is the right thing and the other person just is glib or rolls their eyes and thinks you’re just too hard pressed on some of these issues.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Absolutely. Thank you. And then this is where I have seen such beautiful co-parenting between people who actually don’t like each other very much.

Reena Ninan:
What is that when it’s beautiful co-parenting, what is it that they do that makes it beautiful co-parenting?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, I think one thing they do is they separately have supports to talk about their frustrations with their ex. They deal with those frustrations in their friendships, in their family relationships with their own family so that it doesn’t spill over onto their kid and their kid doesn’t have to hear it or be exposed to it. So they get relief for that anger in ways that are sealed off from their child. That’s one thing. And I think that the other thing that happens, and I’ve seen this and it’s actually one of the neatest things to see, is that they come to a place where they’re like, we can disagree about everything else, but what we’re agreement about is we love these kids or we love this kid and we want the best for them, and we are willing to set aside our other differences as much as we absolutely can to come together to have conversations about what should be happening in the summer in terms of plans and whether it really makes sense for that kid to sign up for this extra class in high school that they can think together on behalf of the kid and try to put everything else aside to do it.

Reena Ninan:
That’s a great point, that it’s that love of that child that unites them still even in the animosity. So Lisa, what do you have for us for Parenting to Go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
One of the things that I learned in my training that has just been, I think one of the best gifts a supervisor ever gave me is around helping kids really understand that we can support their love of the other parent even if we actually don’t like that other parent that much. And there’s an elegant way to do it, which is if you can observe in your kids some wonderful quality that you can attribute to having a connection to the other parent, do it. So it may be the kind of thing where you say, oh, you’re so good at being able to get from place to place and map spaces. I’m terrible at directions. You get that from your dad. It’s a wonderful thing.
Admire it in the kid or your artistic capacities. Your mom is so artistic and I couldn’t even draw a stick man. That is an aspect of your mom that I am so glad passed down to you. It’s such a wonderful thing that you get to have now. So admiring in the kid, something that comes from or can be linked to the other parent is I think the most economical and yet also powerful way to make the point. I don’t want to be married to that person. I can feel good about your connection to that person.

Reena Ninan:
Well, a lot here to unpack. Thank you for walking us through it, Lisa. We’re really, really grateful.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah. I’ll see you next week.

Reena Ninan:
I’ll see you next week.