How Do I Talk to My Child About Racism? With Special Guest: Emmanuel Acho

Ask Lisa Podcast, Ep. 42: How do I Talk to my Child about Racism with Special Guest Emmanuel Acho

The Ask Lisa Podcast does not constitute medical advice and is not a substitute for professional

mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have concerns about your child’s well-being,

consult a physician or mental health professional.

REENA: Oh, I’m so excited for our guest today.

LISA: I know. I know. This is such an important topic and how we bring it up with kids is so critical. You know, Reena,we’ve actually been having a lot of conversations about racism in our home because we decided to go back and watch the original Muppets.

REENA: Oh really?

LISA: The original Muppets from like the 1970s are on TV, so I’ve been showing to my 10-year-old, and one thing that’s really interesting is that at the start of several episodes there’s a disclaimer from Disney plus, where where it’s housed now, saying this episode depicts people or places in ways that we consider, you know, racist or offensive at this point, and rather than erasing this we’re just going to mark this and note this. You know that we think differently now. Something along those lines. And so we’ve been having these conversations. We’re talking about like, okay what makes that inappropriate why is that not okay, but this is so hard, you know, that we’d thought we would bring in a pro. Someone who really has addressed this in work and taken on this work in such a huge way. So, I am absolutely thrilled to have Emmanuel Acho with us.

REENA: He is terrific, and you know what? It’s partially about having these conversations and where do you start? How do you begin? I want to introduce Emmanuel. He is a New York Times bestselling author and host and producer of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. His online videos really aim to address racial insensitivity and ignorance. They were launched back in June of 2020, and his YouTube series has more than 80 million views.

LISA: Wow.

REENA: Yeah. Emmanuel’s also a Fox Sports analyst and former NFL linebacker. He’s also got a master’s degree in sports psychology from the University of Texas. Emmanuel, welcome.

EMMANUEL: Reena, Lisa, it is so good to see you, so good to be joined with you all, and excited to have this chat and conversation.

LISA: We are too. We are too. Oksay, so your new book, “Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy” just came out and it was an instant number one New York Times bestseller.

REENA: Woohoo!

LISA: Congratulations on that. Congratulations.

EMMANUEL: Thank you.

LISA: And I loved the book. I know you wrote it with the aim of helping kids understand systemic racism and racist behavior and I know that your hope is to help parents have these conversations with their kids. What would you want white and non-Black parents to understand about racism before they even have that talk?

EMMANUEL: I would want them to understand the levels and intricacies of unintentional racism. What do want I mean? Reena, Lisa, it’s not the overt racism that plagues our society. It’s not owning slaves. That doesn’t happen anymore. It’s not maliciously saying the N-word. That rarely happens, thank goodness. But it is the microaggression. It’s what I heard so often as a youth, Lisa, Emmanuel, you don’t even talk like you’re Black. Emmanuel, you don’t dress like you’re Black. Emmanuel, you’re like an oreo, Black on the outside white on the inside. Reena, if there are levels of murder in our judicial system, first degree murder, premeditated, second degree murder, crime of passion, then you move down the rungs to involuntary manslaughter, it wasn’t intentional but it still lead to death, then, Lisa, I submit that there are also degrees of racism, and see parents, particularly non-Black parents, that’s who I’m speaking to you now, we can obviously identify first degree racism. Well, Timmy, don’t say the N-word. Well, John, make sure you’re treating everybody politely, but can we identify the involuntary racism? Can we identify the, I mean he’s Black but he’s not like those other Blacks. I mean you’re a different kind of Black guy. You’re so educated for a Black man. Oh my gosh you’re just so beautiful for Black woman. That is what I would want the non-Black and my white parents to understand. It’s not the overt racism that will kill you. It is the little emotional cuts from the sub levels of racism that really lead to death.

REENA: But what if you’re not aware that you’re doing it? Because that’s also the problem, Emmanuel, is that people don’t know that they are doing it.

EMMANUEL: Snaps. Snaps for a phenomenal question. I ask questions for a living so when I get asked a good question. Reena, I’ll tell you like I told Oprah. I use this acronym DENIAL, D. E. N. I. A. L., Don’t Even Know I am Lying, right? And so many people don’t even know they are lying. You can’t fix a problem that you do not know exists. However, Google is extremely free, and so are public libraries, and so with that being said, there’s also a quote I love, which is ‘prejudice is a willful commitment to ignorance.’ You can also exchange that and say, ‘racism is a willful commitment to ignorance.’ Reena, at this junction in time and in society, if you are no longer aware of your own ignorance, it’s your fault. Thenit’s time to take accountability for that. I just wrote a book so that another large portion of society can no longer claim they are unaware because there’s a saying that ignorance is bliss, and while ignorance may be bliss to some, ignorance is leading to death of another, and so you can’t just say, I’m not aware. Reena, I’ll say it like this, and I love how casual a conversation this is. I’m usually so uptight but you all caught me on vacation, so I’m in a great mood.

LISA: Awesome. Awesome.

EMMANUEL: So, usually, Reena, say you were to go to a foreign country. I’m a first generation American, so my parents are from Nigeria. Lisa, if you were to venture with me to Nigeria you would probably say, okay Emmanuel, I know I will be a foreigner here, so are there any sort of customs that I should be aware of before meeting some of the locals? Okay we’re going to go meet the chief in this village, Emmanuel, so should I seek his hand or take off my shoes upon entry? Do I bow to a prostrate forward? Lisa you might ask me, hey Emmanuel, how should I navigate so I can be least offensive? Now, Reena, if we do these things when we travel across the country like, non-Black people always do this, we always take the extra due diligence of saying, you know what? I’m going to a foreign land. Let me understand how to be least offensive, then don’t you think we should do that domestically as well with people that don’t look like us? So, here’s what we don’t get is like so much of what I try to talk about and so many of these concepts people already do, they just don’t understand it you can also apply them domestically to live in better peace with your neighbors as opposed to better peace with your neighboring country.

LISA: I will say, as someone who spends a lot of time around teaching and teachers, that is the most brilliant teaching I have heard in a really long time. This idea of saying, you’re already doing it. You have the skill set. Here’s where you’re already applying it. Now take that skill set and put it to work in your own communities. Put it to work in the day to day interactions you have, but I’m just crazy about the concept itself but also how wisely you’re getting people to bring out the best in themselves. You know, sort of appealing to the better sides to people, to try to help them actually expand the way in which they can be good.

EMMANUEL: You know, one, Lisa, thank you because I don’t take that lightly. Two, I’m very solution oriented.

LISA: Yeah.

EMMANUEL: You know, if you read, I forgot what it was it may have been Malcolm Gladwell’s “Outliers,” it talks about how different countries are receptor-oriented versus speaker-oriented, and I take the obligation as a speaker to make sure you, Lisa, you, Reena, and everyone listening understands. I do not put the obligation on the listener to understand. I take the responsibility to deliver the message in a manner in which you all can understand. It takes some more time, but what is the point in speaking if they are not understanding, and so I’m always looking, I told y’all, I’m on vacation right now, and so as I travel to, I guess the same country, but as I travel like five hours Hawai’i’, that’s where I’m at, my friend was wearing a Chicago White Sox hat and this white woman came up to my Black friend and was like, oh my gosh you’re from Chicago? He’s like, no I just like the hat. See, they found a mutual connection based upon Chicago where the white woman was from to lead her to converse with the stranger, this Black man, my friend. Why do I present that? Because I often times give examples of how we Black people navigate as foreigners in America. I live in Beverly Hills when I’m in California, so if I go to a restaurant and see another Black person, I may give him a head nod, I may say hello, I may make a connection with them that I would not make with another white person because we share something, our Blackness. Now, when I first said that so many white people were like, is that reverse racism? Why would you do that? But then I bring up the same example. You all do that all the time. When you go to Mexico when you’re sitting in the customs line and you see another white person with a Texas flag on their backpack you’ll be like, oh what part of Texas are you from? You’re making a connection with an individual while in a foreign land because you have something that bonds you all together, and so, Lisa, full circle. It’s just a matter of trying to make sure that everyone can grasp these terms. Systemic racism is real. There’s empirical data that states it is so. Prejudice is real, but let’s just all figure out how to let our guard down so we can understand it and move forward collectively as a better society.

REENA: You know what I love about your background is you grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood but you went to Black church on Sunday, and you knew what it was like to go between two cultures. I love that. I think about my own childhood. My parents are from India, I was embarrassed to bring the chapati, the chicken curry in the lunch box to school, and now, post-COVID, everyone’s like asking, hey, Reena, when are you going to cook the chicken curry? We’ll be coming over, you know, how the tables have turned, but Emmanuel, what would you say to your younger self who was growing up and struggling between these two universes?

EMMANUEL: Gollee, I think the first thing I would say is I would give myself assurance it will all work out. So, remember, I’m first generation American, so what does that mean? That means that when I go back to Nigeria I’m not Nigerian enough because I don’t speak the language, righ? I’m American to them. But then when I am in America I’m not American enough because like I’m not really American. So, you’re you’re kind of a misfit, and then when I got my high school I’m not black enough because I don’t I don’t know, speak however Black people were supposed to speak to these white kids, but then when I go to a Black church I’m too white because I go to school with all white people.

REENA: Yeah.

EMMANUEL: And so like I was never enough. I was always trying to figure out my identity, and it was because so many people said something that made me question my identity, not realizing, Reena, that you’re Black by skin color. Now, let me say something but I hope everybody listening to this can hear, digest and understand. There is a difference between color and culture. I just recently understood that about 10 months ago. That was the first time I verbalized it. Every now and then I say something smart that I’m like, oh wowthat was actually smart.

LISA: Note that. Note that.

EMMANUEL: There is a difference between color and culture. What the heck do I mean? You can be Black by skin color but not Black cultured if you will. I was Black by skin color but I was Nigerian cultured. Listening to Nigerian music, eating Nigerian food, going to Nigerian small groups. Even to this day so many of my Black friends will be like, hey did you watch this movie? You know a traditional Black movie if you will. “Friday,” “Friday Afternoon,” “Barber Shop,” etc. I’m like, no because I grew up in a Nigerian household. I didn’t get Black cultured until I got to college and played football at the University of Texas and in the National Football League. So, I hate lazy attitudes, and we all use them. When people try to say, yeah he’s Black, but he’s not really Black, What they’re trying to say is he’s Black but he’s not really Black cultured. So, if you’re going to say that then say that, but let’s also understand that culture isn’t like a monolith group. There are varieties of Black culture, and that’s what I understood when I got to college. You could be Black from the country, Black go to private school, Black from the hood, Black upper class, Black lower class. So, I no longer, and I’m sure I used to say that as well, like yeah they’re Black, but they’re not Black Black. It’s a matter of let’s not be so lazy with our words.

REENA: Yeah, Emmanuel, we’ve got a listener question we want to get to next.

LISA: Okay, Emmanuel, we have a question for you from a parent. We let parents know that you’re going to be on our podcast and they sent in questions for you. Okay, here we go. ‘This question weighs heavy on me. My daughter just turned 13 and she’s very active on TikTok. Tap is also my music of choice but my issue is that many of the songs she posts say the N-word. I have told her that I find it totally disrespectful, especially as a white person, to repost these songs. I know I may be overreacting, but I just don’t know how to feel about this and in turn how to talk to her about it. Is it just my thing and not hers? I can barely handle the half shirts, but this is too much.’ Okay so what’s your advice to this mom and how do you think white parents should handle the N-word?

EMMANUEL: Ah, first you’ve got to tackle the half shirts. Not the half shirts. Not the half shirts.  Man, no, Lisa, this is a great question. This question takes years off my life in a good way. I mean this is the question of all questions, right? It is the question that needs an answer. I’ll say it like this. It’s just such a heavy question.

LISA: We’re watching you warm up to answer it. It’s like marshaling your sources to answer this question.

EMMANUEL: I’m telling you, mind you it’s such a tough question to have to answer it so well so, I’m so cognizant of like every word I say. Okay, in our society we all have certain language that we use based upon relationships. As soon as I logged on this call I said, hey Lisa do you want to be called Lisa or Dr. Lisa. You instantly told me Lisa. Reena, I asked a pronunciation of your name. You clarified and you also said what? You said thank you for asking.

REENA: Yeah.

EMMANUEL: Based upon relationships that’s how we dictate what we call people. Now, Lisa, I’m sure some people call you Dr. I’m sure some people may call you L. I’m sure some people may call you LD based upon that relationship that they have with you. But I, a relative stranger, will ask you what you want me to call you. Why am I saying that? If you’re in a relationship with a significant other, you may call them babe. You may call them hun. You may call them darling. I would not go to your significant other and call them babe, hun or darling because I do not have that relationship that you all have, but you all, based upon the relationship that you have, can use certain language with somebody you have a relationship with. The N-word is the same thing. Black people inherently have a relationship based upon obstacles they have had to traverse and may have had to overcome historically speaking or even modern day. Obviously historically there were far greater obstacles, but there are still obstacles modern day. There is an inherent relationship there. Now, some people may say okay menu, but the N-word it’s such a volatile word. Why don’t we throw it out altogether. To that I would say this. I have a friend. He’s a hip hop artist. He calls his wife fat. His wife is not fat. She’s roughly 5’2. I would probably estimate 120 pounds maybe, but he refers to her as fat. I don’t know why, but you know what I’m not going to do? I’m not going to tell him, hey bro, don’t call your wife fat. That’s a nickname, mind you. He’s not calling her fat based upon the colloquial definition. He calls her that as a nickname, but I’m not going to tell him what to call his wife because they have a relationship. She also refers to herself as that. So who am I to tell another man what to call his wife? I am not in that relationship. In the same breath, who is a white person to tell Black people what to call other Black people when they are not in that relationship? Remember, well I can’t say remember because many of you may not know, Black people don’t say N-word with a hard e-r at the end. There are different spellings of the N-word that dictate that change in meaning. If I ever type the N-word to my friend, I will never spell it how you read it in a textbook because Black people have re-framed the N-word to now use it as a term of endearment. Another sidebar. Not all Black people are cool with using the N-word. This is a very packed question that you asked. I’m giving you a very detailed answer although I don’t like talking very long. When I was talking to Oprah, Oprah was like, I hate using the N-word and I will not let anybody use the N-word around me because it was often the last word that Black boys and girls heard before they were lynched and murdered.

REENA: Wow.

EMMANUEL: Oprah, a Black woman, doesn’t like the N-word. Me, a young Black man, I use the N-word in my friend groups. So, with that being said we don’t all feel the same way about something. No congregation or aggregation of people all feel the same way about something, but very simply, I would encourage that daughter, one about the half shirts, but no I would I would talk to the daughter to say, lastly and then I promise you I’ll be done answering this question, understand the meaning and the connotation of the N-word. If I ever post a video on my social media I will not post it with the N-word because you have to remember 1800s, the great work of Frederick Douglass when talking about his master said that his master told him that reading would spoil an N-word because you and N-word are nothing more than a slave to your master, close quote. The N-word is synonymous with death, with the dirt, with reminding black people that they are worth no more than the ground in which they walk on. So, when you say the N-word, particularly coming out of someone whose complexion is light, white, then it is reminiscent of the history, the horrible history in which that word had the connotation with.

LISA: Wow.

EMMANUEL: Okay, we’re done.

LISA: All right, so I’ve got another question for you. Our listeners are dedicated parents. They’re trying to get it right. They want to do right by their own kids and they want to do right by other people’s kids. So, as our listeners are trying to figure out what it means to be an ally, what do you think they should have on their minds as they start this journey? How do parents themselves act like allies and how do they help their kids act like allies?

EMMANUEL: It’s a good question. Being an ally takes action. I’ve never said that before and I like it. Being an ally takes action. What do I mean? Remember about a year ago when there was a blackout Tuesday and we all posted a black square on her Instagram pages? Gosh that was so worthless in my opinion, and it was worthless not because the act didn’t necessarily point people to educate themselves, it was worthless because the black square was used as a scapegoat to not have to do anything else. Well I posted a black square on my social media so I’m an ally. What? You posted a bikini picture on Monday, a black square on Tuesday, and then a vacation picture on Wednesday? It’s not allyship. What are we talking about? And then you deleted the black square a week later because it didn’t look good on your Instagram. It’s not allyship. Now, let’s also clarify. Allyship looks different based upon where you are and to whom you are working with. I will give you all examples. After George Floyd was murdered I get called by three white men: Brandon, Russell, Trent, three white friends of mine and all they said was, hey we’re here if you need to vent, if you need to cry, if you need to yell, if you need to talk. We are here for you. In that moment that was allyship. For those who don’t know, before “Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy” was written there was a video series “Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. That is how I got in touch with Oprah. She found me. That’s how Matthew McConaughey ends up calling me from a no caller ID number. Another story.

REENA: Oh, that’s a good one.

EMMANUEL: I was creating these videos by myself. I was paying for them by myself. I was producing them by myself. I was editing them by myself. Why am I telling you all this? Because one of my white friends, who’s actually a producer for a living, he says, Hey, Emmanuel, if you need help I would love to do it for you and support. That was allyship. Allyship doesn’t necessarily look like marching and protesting. It doesn’t necessarily look like yelling Black lives matter. It doesn’t necessarily look like yelling defund the police. Allyship looks different to whom you’re being an ally to, just like friendship looks different to whom you’re being a friend to. If someone’s going through cancer I’ll treat that differently. If someone’s struggling with ALS, I’ll treat that differently. If someone’s going through a divorce, I’ll treat that differently. If someone’s going through a bankruptcy, I’ll treat that differently. That’s like asking me what’s friendship look like? Well to whom are you being a friend? So what does allyship look like? To whom are you being an ally? Allyship looks like this. In business, in business, they say find a need and fill it.

REENA: Yeah. That’s right.

EMMANUEL: And in allyship I will say the same thing.

LISA: That’s beautiful.

EMMANUEL: Find a need and fill it. Y’all are honestly getting all my gems. It must be my vacation mind. I’ve never said that before either, and I really liked how it sounded.

REENA: But Lisa does say this on the podcast. You’e got to take vacations so you can let it all out and that it does help you reset, so there you go. Emmanuel, before we let you get back your vacation, I want to give people a little taste of this but because it’s so good, and by the way I read it when I was on vacation. It is so great and fun to read. You right here, you say: ‘The longest lasting pandemic in this country is a virus not of the body, but of the mind, and it’s called racism. I’m not sure if we can cure racism completely, but I believe that just as scientists rush to find a vaccine for COVID-19, we should be equally steadfast in finding a cure for the virus of racism and oppression. However, this time around you are the scientists tasked with finding the cure and get this. You don’t even have to go to med school.’ So, I want to ask you, what do you think is the cure for racism, and what really works?

EMMANUEL: Man, you know what’s crazy? I can’t believe I wrote that.

REENA: That’s so good. That’s so good. You don’t have to go to med school.

EMMANUEL: I’m actually smart. I just sound smart sometimes.

REENA: take the credit. Stop. Take the credit.

EMMANUEL: It’s really crazy. Okay, I’m gonna say something that will sound asinine at first, but if you give me the patience to listen you’ll truly understand and hopefully it’ll blow your mind. The biggest mistake we made in this country is when we outlawed segregation. Oooh, Emmanuel, did you just say that? Yes, the biggest mistake we made. Reena, what we should’ve done instead was mandate integration. Ooooh, digest that for a second, people, digest that, see, when you outlaw segregation, all we did was take down the signs and put them in parentheses. Now, Reena, you’re holding my book in your hand, so you fully understand a word put in parentheses is still read, it’s just not said out loud. See, when we took down the signs and we outlawed segregation, we still read ‘whites only’ in our heart. We still read ‘no coloreds allowed’ in our minds. We just stopped saying get out loud. So, we shouldn’t have outlawed segregation. We should have mandated integration because now you are forcing different people from different cultures to mix, and when you force people to mix, you understand that these notions that you had of different individuals are actually false. What is the cure for racism in our country? It is very simple. Mandate integration in your own life. As simple as that. If you mandate integration in your own life then you will very quickly see that the concept you had of white people may not actually be true. The thoughts you had of Black people may not actually be true at all. You will actually get to know an individual for who they are. I’ll end with a story. Growing up the son of Nigerian parents we don’t have dogs, cats and pets because in Nigeria you don’t have dogs, cats and pets. You may have a goat, you may have a cow, you may have a giraffe, but no you’re not going to have any pets, and so growing up in my house we didn’t have animals. So, when I was in college I went to a dog park with this girl I was interested in, and as we’re walking through this dog park, I say, oh my gosh, I see this dog off leash, I’m like, oh the dog’s so cute. And she’s like, no that dog has rabies, and she’s like, how do you know? Moments later we were walking, and she goes to pet a dog, I’m like what are you doing? And she’s like, oh no this dog is so adorable. You see, Reena, I could not decipher the difference between a dog that was a pet or a dog that was a threat because I didn’t grow up with any exposure to dogs. See, if you don’t grow up with exposure to white people you can’t decipher the difference between a white person that’s racist and white person that’s racially ignorant because you didn’t grow up exposed to white people. If you don’t grow up exposed to Black people you can’t decipher the difference between a Black person it’s cold and thus has his hood on and a black person that may be trying to conceal their identity because you weren’t exposed to different individuals. So, you, like I, can not decipher a difference because of a lack of exposure and integration. So, curing racism isn’t actually complicated, it’s just difficult, and you just have to mandate integration in your life.

LISA: Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Wow, I feel like we could go on for hours but you need to get back to your vacation. So, Emmanuel, I don’t know if you know this about our podcast but we give away books. That’s a big part of what we do, and so naturally we’re going to give away a couple copies of your book. Of course I want to give away a million copies of your book. But if you are interested in entering, go over to Instagram. You’ll see all the instructions there, and we will send out a couple copies to unbelievably lucky winners, and the rest of you just go buy it.

REENA: That’s right. It’s important to buy the book.

LISA: You need the book. Emmanuel, we cannot thank you enough for your generosity. I mean just straight up generosity with your wisdom and your energy and your insight.

REENA: And that you care.

LISA: And that you care.

REENA: That you care so much. I love that.

LISA: We’re really grateful.

EMMANUEL: Of course. I’ll end by saying this, and this is just to hold other people accountable. I recently read a Neil Degrasse Tyson quote. I think is an astrophysicist, also just a super genius, and he said, and I’m paraphrasing here but he said: ‘What I do I do out of obligation because if I have the ability to do something and I can do it better than others, I would be morally irresponsible if I did not, and so people think like, oh do you just love having uncomfortable conversations? The answer is no, but I would be morally irresponsible if I didn’t because if I could do something better than other people it’s my obligation to do that. So, for everybody listening, just understand what are you skilled at doing to make this world a better place? And even if it is taxing, and even if it’s burdensome, it’s your responsibility to do so because you would be morally irresponsible otherwise.

REENA: It’s great. So grateful you could make it. I’m so sorry we’re not there in Hawaii to stay with you for the rest of the evening.

LISA: Back to the beach. Back to the beach for you.

REENA: Back to the beach.

EMMANUEL: All right y’all. It was a pleasure.

LISA: Thanks.

REENA: Thanks so much. So, Lisa, what do you have for us for parenting to go this week?

LISA: Well for parenting to go I think focus on maybe how we as white families approach questions of talking with kids about racism. I would not presume to be able to guide families of color on how this happens, but I’ll tell you how I’m doing it in my own home and with my own family. I know I can’t tell my girls how to conduct themselves or what to do in any given situation. There’s too many variables, too many contexts out there, but I can try to help them know how to think about things. So, what I have said to them lately is with every new headline that we see that is gutting, you know, that is some terrible headline about the harm to a person of color that seems to be very much to do with the fact that they’re a person of color. I say to them, here’s what I’m doing. I say, you know I’m trying to look at that headline and think first of all I will never know what it feels like to be a person of color reading this headline, and I have to sit here and try to imagine what it might feel like to be a person of color reading this headline. To do the two together. To think, I will never know, and my job is to try to know, to be humble and empathic side by side. I just, I really hope that that guides them and points them in the right direction as they do move into the world and encounter all that’s out there.

REENA: Boy I love this conversation and thank you so much, Lisa. I will see you next week.

LISA: I’ll see you next week.