Should Our Tween Dictate Our Post-Divorce Visitation Schedule?

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The following transcript has been automatically generated by an AI system and should be used for informational purposes only. We cannot guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or timeliness of the information provided.

Reena Ninan:
When you’re going through a divorce as a parent, what are the top three things you need to keep in mind?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s really no great way for this to work. When one parent goes after the other parent, it hurts the kid. When you’re getting divorced, it is wildly overwhelming. I mean, it just wrecks the parents often. It’s such a hard moment in family life.

Reena Ninan:
So what’s an ideal situation?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s one dreamy, dreamy scenario that can almost never be pulled off.

Reena Ninan:
Tell me.
All right. December we are here.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yes, and I will tell you one thing I think this years ago I knit for both of my girls’ advent calendars where I put a little treat in there every day and I love it, but it’s also very good when it’s finally filled because coming up with 24 not garbage gifts that fit into tiny little mittens and hats.

Reena Ninan:
I love that. So it’s an advent calendar that you knit and then they open it up every day there’s some sort of.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Every day and it’s like a garland and it’s little mittens and little hats and I made one for each of them and I’m never making another one again. It was such a project.

Reena Ninan:
That’s impressive. I can’t even sew a button.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, knitting is something I do like to do, but I’m never making one of these again.

Reena Ninan:
But this is what I love. Traditions around the holidays of what people and kids look forward to doing. Right.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I love getting them out and a lot of chapstick towards the end of, some earrings. It’s hard because you don’t want to just give them junk.

Reena Ninan:
So do you lead up to a high value gift?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Nicer little low value jewelry.

Reena Ninan:
Oh, interesting. Alright. I’m going to be thinking for you of what to fill those with.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yes. No, if you ever see any cool little things when you’re round about grab them for me.

Reena Ninan:
Okay.
What do you do in families where you are blended or divorced and you’re trying to figure out the holidays? So we got this great letter. I want to dive right into talking about sort of post-divorce visitation. How does that work? Right. The holidays also a big time.
Dear Dr. Lisa and Reena, we recently got divorced and our 12-year-old daughter is definitely struggling with split custody. She lives with me one week and him one week. We live just two miles away from each other to be in the same school district and to be close to her friends. We’ve tried to make it more positive by saying you have two homes, two bedrooms to decorate and enjoy. But she says, “I barely feel settled in when I get here and two days later it’s time to go again. It’s just too much.”
We’ve opened the conversation up with her to ask her to suggest what she’d like to do. She has suggested an every two weeks switch and maybe we’ll try it. My ex and I are both quite flexible when she’s with one parent, we’re still okay with her hanging out with the other or whoever she wants to for a few hours. We’re really trying our best to make this as comfortable as possible for her, since she already has middle school, puberty and all of that to deal with. She often says, “Oh, just six more years of this and I’ll be out of here anyway.” That really breaks my heart because of how true and sad this is. What else can we do here? Thank you.
Is this sort of a common arrangement with divorce?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, it is the one week at each house and what I’ll say about this letter out of the gate, this is in many ways an excellent divorce scenario. Clearly these exes are working together, clearly trying to set up family life so that she’s near her friends, their homes are not too far apart. This kid’s saying, “What if I can stay two weeks at one house and then two weeks at the other house?” And it sounds like this woman and her ex are both open to that. They’re also open to when it’s mom’s week spending time over at dad’s, which is great. So there’s a lot here that you don’t always see in these divorce situations. There’s sometimes a lot more heat and a lot more discord actually, not just sometimes. Often.
In the kind of big picture of this, this is a pretty good deal, right? And it’s interesting, it’s one child so that sometimes when there’s more than one kid, this gets more complicated. There’s a lot that structurally makes this more workable than a lot of situations. So I think you want to talk sort of just acknowledge that out of the gate.

Reena Ninan:
I’m thinking for myself, if I had to move one week and then move all my stuff, I just think about going on a business trip, how disruptive that is in your realize, I’d never thought of it from a teen’s perspective or tweens.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It’s not that great. And actually where this kid is coming from most kids, and this is what I’ve heard, is that one week at each house, I’ve often thought about this and sometimes when I’ve done divorce work with families, it’s a little bit, if you were one week in LA and one week in New York, that is really hard. I really appreciate this kid is like she’s complaining. I’ve heard kids refer to this as feeling like a human ping pong ball, which is not a great way to feel. And there’s so much empathy in this letter where she’s also like, and this kid’s in puberty and this kid’s in middle school and she’s trucking herself back and forth. It’s not that great.

Reena Ninan:
So what’s an ideal situation? Is there a good one?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s one dreamy, dreamy scenario that can almost never be pulled off.

Reena Ninan:
Tell me!

Dr. Lisa Damour:
As soon as I start to describe it, you’ll see why this mostly does not work. It requires a lot of resources, but the ideal situation honestly is that there are three homes. There is the home where the kid lives all the time, and that each parent has their own apartment and the parents are the ones who come and go from the kid’s perspective. So the mom moves in one week, goes back to her place, the dad moves in one week, goes back to his place. In the dreamiest of all dreamy scenarios and this almost never happens. There’s actually one apartment and the exes share it. Okay, this is enormously rare. I have seen it done, but if you look at this straight up from the kid’s perspective, that’s the ideal.

Reena Ninan:
That’s the best. Because why? Because there’s consistency. Same space.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
The kid never moves.

Reena Ninan:
Can I tell you, if I was divorced from my husband, I wouldn’t want to see him in the same.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Exactly.

Reena Ninan:
I mean sharing space.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Exactly. And often what they do is they keep the family home that they had and then the parents are moving in and out. You can see why I say this almost never happens, but I just want it out there in the world. If you look at it straight up from the perspective of the kids and this is somehow a viable option, that’s the best one for the kids.

Reena Ninan:
What do you think when parents are going through a divorce, what is it that they might not realize that really affects the kid that they should know?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So hard, Reena, it’s so hard on the kid and it’s interesting. Of course it’s so much better when the family gets along and it’s clear that these exes work well together. I will take that any day over hostility or conflict and definitely over open conflict.
Open conflict is where the damage gets done. We have always known that if exes are fighting in front of the kids, that is where we’re going to see psychological harm. If we’re going to see it from anything, we’re going to see it from that. Sometimes Reena, it’s interesting when the parents can work so well together, kids are like, why do you guys have to get divorced? As much as I don’t like the discord, at least kids are at least like, okay, I get it. You guys can’t get along. But every once in a while in these situations, the good working relationship between the exes does lead kids being like, why do I have to move all the time? You guys could get along. Why do you have to do this?

Reena Ninan:
So I’ve never thought of it from the child’s perspective, like the human ping-pong that when you said that, that really hit.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
When I say there’s really no great way for this to work, somebody is going to have to do quite a bit of adjusting one way or another. Even my super ideal scenario, well now the parents are both moving every other week. That is not fun for them. I think the thing though that is really important, and this is so hard to do if you’re the adult in this, but I’m just going to ask a lot of adults in this, asking a lot of kids in this when parents divorce, they’re putting what works really well for them ahead of what might work really well for their kid.

Reena Ninan:
Whoa.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I know. And it’s not always that way. It’s not always that way because sometimes there are really unhappy or even dangerous relationships or actually breaking up.

Reena Ninan:
Or for your own mental health when you know need to get out.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And for probably even sometimes the kids ending that relationship is the best thing. But in a situation like this, I think often the kid’s feeling is, “You guys are doing what works for you. It doesn’t work for me.”
Now of course they’re adults, they get to, but one of the things that can then soften this a little bit for the kid is to acknowledge that, right? To say, “But we do get along but we don’t want to be married anymore, but we get it. We’re doing what works for us ahead of what’s going to work well for you.”

Reena Ninan:
If you can’t do this ideal situation of sharing a home which you’ve laid out.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
0.1%. Yeah, 1% of 1%, yes.

Reena Ninan:
And you’re switching between homes, is it better to do two weeks at a time than one week?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
That’s a really good question. How would you feel if your kid were somewhere else for two weeks? Every other two weeks?

Reena Ninan:
Well, now that you’ve reframed it for me that I’ve put my emotions and my needs ahead of my kids, maybe in this divorce, possibly, I would think maybe this is my compromise where I needed to get out of this marriage. I needed to do this for me and also for my kids. Probably they might not realize it, but maybe if there is an arrangement that is better for their mental health and their development, I would be interested to hear that.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think that’s a good way to think about it. Right. Okay. We’re asking this of you every other week. LA, New York probably does feel different than two weeks in LA and two weeks in New York. And what I also like in this letter is they’re like, we can try it.
And then that’s like again, Reena. I mean a lot of these arrangements, lawyers have to get involved. Stuff has to get rewritten so that this family’s in a situation where they’re like, you know what? Let’s give it a spin and let’s see how it works. That’s actually pretty good news. I think what I would want though is in addition to trying it maybe something that really formalizes, but you’re always going to have to Tuesday night at the other parent’s house. You’re always going to have, and sometimes you can throw in a weekend in there where the kid maybe say that they’re at the dad’s house for two weeks in a row, but in between weekends with mom, these can become very elaborated schedules.

Reena Ninan:
And they say even in this letter that we’re open to them still hanging out together. The other parent, if there’s something that comes up.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think it’s also in the spirit of trying to meet this kid halfway, and I’m not surprised and I totally get it, where the parents like, “Isn’t this great, you can decorate two bedrooms” and the kid’s like, “No,” the kid’s like I am watching the clock until I can have one lousy dorm room. I don’t know, there’s just so much love in this where the parents are trying to make it better trying to say like, “Oh, it’s great, it’s going to be great.” And the kid’s able to be honest and the kid’s like, “No, this is not what I want.”

Reena Ninan:
What are the options you should think about that could really help in the development of a child when you’re going through divorce?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So number one, number one, and always number one is clearly you do not get along with that person like you used to. Deal with that on your own time. That is the number one thing.
Whatever the disagreements are, whatever the discord is, deal with it separately. The way we want to think about it is that kids love both of their parents. And when one parent goes after the other parent, it hurts the kid. It hurts the part of the kid that loves that parent. Keep conflict to a minimum. I think the other thing that’s really, really key is it sounds sort of small, but it’s actually not small. Reduce logistical hassles as much as absolutely possible. So if a kid needs to move this much, try to have a full setup at both homes that they don’t have to pack clothes. I mean of course this is expensive having two sets of clothes or whatever. But the more it can be not like you’re staying in a hotel in LA in a hotel in New York, the more that it’s like you’re in your home in LA and your home in New York, the more that you can make that the scenario. Because the other thing is middle school, she’s trying to remember her homework, where it’s how it gets done. So the more there can be just sort of an automatic clicking into the space, that can help a lot.

Reena Ninan:
And obviously not having conflict in front of kids. You’ve said this over and over again, but what else can parents do to make this a smoother transition?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Being transparent about here’s the plans or here’s where we are. Taking input, where you can. As this letter does, being really empathic about how the kid feels about the divorce. It’s interesting, Reena, when I think about my training and I did a lot of training around divorce, I remember my supervisor saying, we can divide everything into things that can be solved with a logistical shift and things that can be solved with empathy. So sometimes the kid’s like, “I keep forgetting my toothbrush.” Okay, this is easy. Buy more toothbrushes.
That’s a logistical shift where the kid is like, “I really miss being able to walk to that friend’s house when I’m at your house.” That’s where the solution has to be saying, “Of course you do and I get it and I’m sorry.” And you can go further. You can say, “We really get it. This divorce is working better for us than being married, but it’s not working for you. And we know that you’re the one who’s having to absorb this and we’re sorry.”
Kids would rather have a real solution. But if that cannot be possible and it’s often not possible, just kindness, empathy, owning it goes really far.

Reena Ninan:
Kindness, empathy and owning it.
I have to tell you, there’s one part in this letter that really hurt my heart. It was when the kid said six more years like this and then I’m out. I have only six more years. It kind of breaks my heart as a parent to see they’re counting it down and being vocal about it. How should the parents respond to that?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So one thing that has always been fascinating to me when you’re getting divorced, it is wildly overwhelming. I mean, it just wrecks the parents often, even if they want it. It’s such a hard moment in family life. I mean the parents really are usually more banged up than they’ve ever been emotionally. So they’re figuring out the visitation, they’re figuring out the logistics of it, and they’re figuring out maybe 11 when they figured it out and you come up with a plan to come up with. But one thing I’ve really seen over time is by the time a kid is 14, 15, 16, the plan that made a ton of sense when they were 11 or 12 may not always be the plan. And sometimes it’s like who’s closer to the high school? Because the kids playing sports. Again, this takes money. Often kids start driving.

Reena Ninan:
That’s right.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I have seen it successfully happen where the kid starts being like, Tuesday, I’ll be here Wednesday, I’ll

Reena Ninan:
Come up with their own plan.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
They come up with their own plan and they’ve got their car and they’re getting themselves back and forth. And I think you know this too, when you have an 11-year-old, it’s very hard to picture the 16 or 17-year-old version of that kid and the kinds of things they’re going to want to be able to do. The ideal situations I’ve seen are where the parents get along well enough that they don’t feel like turfy or possessive of the kid’s time. And as the kid ages, what this means is that they can allow whatever it is that becomes possible in the same way that I think about as our kids get older, things change. I’ve always traveled now when I travel, I just leave. Whereas when my kids were little, it was like this whole to-do, like how am I going to get a babysitter here at seven 30 in the morning and make this work? All that stuff. And as our kids age, things change really fast. And suddenly you have a 17-year-old and the situation looks different because it is, it’s heartbreaking to think that this kid is counting down until they can leave their family homes. I mean, that’s just not what we want. But I think the response in that moment may be to say, “We’re going to keep working with you. We’re going to keep working with you, and this is the plan we have now and we’re going to figure out a way to get you access to a car.”
And then weirdly, I mean, kids will sometimes leave a bunch of stuff in their car and truck it around. But I think I would say to this kid, I hear you. There’s going to be some disruption for the duration that you’re not, still living under our roofs. But it won’t always feel this way. You’re going to start to have more and more autonomy as you go.

Reena Ninan:
There’s so much to think about here. But before we go, Lisa, I’m, it’s so hard and I love being at sporting events and now seeing parents who years ago might’ve had an acrimonious divorce and really working together. I remember one parent, brought another parent their favorite coffee, and I just thought, “Oh my God, I just love that they’re making it work for, they have a great kid.” So what’s your advice when you are struggling emotionally, you know, need to do this, your kids are involved. What are the top three things you need to keep in mind when you’re going through divorce as a parent, when you’re overwhelmed, but you really truly want what’s best for your kid and you might not be thinking about certain things?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I’m actually just going to give you the top one. There’s a one.

Reena Ninan:
There’s one?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s a one. I mean, well, we’ve got the basics of don’t fight openly in front of the kid and don’t trash your ex, whether the kid’s not there or not. So that’s one and two.
And then three is you are no longer married or partnered. You are co-parents still. This person used to be my husband or wife or partner. This person is now my co-parent. And using that terminology to just force yourself to shift into a new way of thinking about who that person is in your life, right. Which again, when I think about the work I’ve done with divorcing families, you are wrecked often. And so all you’re thinking about is the loss of this relationship. Nobody gets married with the plan of getting divorced. That’s nobody’s plan. When you divorce you’re managing all this grief either about the loss of the relationship or at least your hopes for the relationship. And so I think in that point, it’s very hard not to be seeing that person as my ex-husband, my ex-wife, my ex-partner. And I think that the more you can be like, my co-parent, the more that we can think of ourselves as coaches on a team and who’s on the team? Our kids are on the team. We want them to succeed and we are here to try to make that happen. And we’re going to set everything else aside to be there for them and to support the players we’ve got.

Reena Ninan:
Can I tell you, I don’t think I could do the share the house thing. I don’t want to find some other woman’s makeup bag.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
That’s where it gets weird.

Reena Ninan:
Tooth brush. Can’t do, Lisa. Couldn’t do it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
No. I mean when I say one percent of one percent.

Reena Ninan:
I understand why we work. That’s right.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And even that one, right? Are you going to do that forever? I mean, I think people hope to find love again. I mean, it’s not an ongoing, usually successful thing to do, but it is an option. It’s it’s an option.

Reena Ninan:
Well, I love it. You’ve had us look at it from a kid’s perspective and a tween especially going through so much. What do you have for us for Parenting to Go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So one thing I have seen help is if there’s a pet that goes with the kid.

Reena Ninan:
To both houses?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah, moves back and forth.

Reena Ninan:
Have you’ve seen a difference with this?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Kids sometimes if they feel like they’re getting shuttled and especially an only child, but sometimes already kids with a sibling who’s bugging them at the time. I have seen that if also the cat goes back and forth when the kid goes back and forth, the kid doesn’t feel so alone in it. They’re like you and me, kitty. It’s time to go over to the other house. So if you don’t already have a pet and don’t want a pet, I’m not saying go get a pet to do this. But I will say as you’re thinking about divorce schedules, if the kid is really attached to the pet, it’s something to consider.

Reena Ninan:
That is really interesting to hear you say. I will warn everybody who does not have a dog. It is like having another child.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Exactly.

Reena Ninan:
But boy, when you’re talking about compromise and things to make them feel more adjusted, what a great idea.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Pets can go a long way. Pets can go a long way.

Reena Ninan:
What a great idea.
Well, thank you Lisa. It’s the holidays. Don’t you feel like sometimes I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but sometimes the holidays things get derailed in family life.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
They do. And we just have to try to enjoy it anyway and look forward to the routines clicking back in January.

Reena Ninan:
Okay. You love your routines.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I love em.

Reena Ninan:
And you’ve helped me understand why they’re good. I’ll see you next week.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I’ll see you next week.