Untangling All Things Digital for Parents

The Ask Lisa Podcast does not constitute medical advice and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have concerns about your child’s well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional.

The following transcript has been automatically generated by an AI system and should be used for informational purposes only. We cannot guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or timeliness of the information provided.

Reena Ninan:
Wow, look at this. Live from New York, it’s the Digital Parenting Summit. I’ve always wanted to do SNL, but this is the closest one.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
This is the closest we’re going to get. We’ll take it.

Reena Ninan:
We’ll take it. Absolutely.
This is so amazing to see everyone here today and the enthusiasm and excitement. We have got a ton of things digitally related that we want to talk about. First off, I have to say backstage you and Poppy Harlow, we’re looking at this new robot, this new digital AI robot that Lisa has on our website. It’s called Rosalie. You’ve got to tell people about this.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay. So Rosalie, named by my 13 year old daughter, is an AI powered librarian who searches all of my work to answer parenting questions. So if it’s 2:00 AM and you’re like, “I have a parenting question,” you can go to my website and find her and she’ll give you an answer and then direct you to where in my resources you can learn more.

Reena Ninan:
That’s so great. So the book chapters, the podcast, it all comes through. I love it. So I want to ask you digitally, what would you say are sort of the three or four top concerns that you think parents tend to have when it comes to parenting in the digital environment?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I hear a lot. And I want you all, we’re going to think together for a little bit and then we want your questions. This is actually a session where we’re going to be able to answer your questions. So start getting those ready and we’ll come to those. All right. So I hear, let’s say three things. I hear a lot. So the first thing I hear with younger families is, “My kid is saying, and it also may be true, that they are the only kid without a device. There’s all this pressure, there’s all this stuff going on. I feel like I must do this. I don’t know what to do.”
I think that one is really tricky. And I think one of the ways that we can think about it as parents is to recognize that social media or social technologies, they’re social. They’re about kids connecting. And it is important for kids to connect. Social media and technologies have their downsides. Social isolation is also bad for kids. So what I always advise is to say, are you able to maintain your connections with your peers without digital technology? And as long as a kid can say yes, they’re good to go.

Reena Ninan:
This was a turning point on when we decided whether to get my 11-year-old daughter a phone. And you were saying, you’ve always said, this has always been your advice that once socially it’s sort of a difficult … They’re having these conversations on their phones. You’ve got to kind of think about it now.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It depends on the community and the area and where things are in terms of collective action, but the time does sometimes come where kids will say, “I have no idea what’s going on,” and it’s true. And then my guidance is texting gets them very far. And the way I like to think about texting, it’s like JV social media, right? And kids can practice, they can see how they do. And if kids handle texting very well over time, you maybe feel comfortable with social media. If your kid ends up in the meanest text thread ever or starts the meanest text thread ever, do not give that kid social media. I mean, so you have time to sort of figure this out.

Reena Ninan:
Okay. What would you say? What else do parents bring up to you?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So then the time comes when kids do get devices, right? Somewhere along the line. And then what I will hear from parents is, “We never see them. They are lost in their phone. I feel like all I see is the top of my kid’s head.”
And so that is not where we want things to be. And one thing that can make a huge difference, and especially if you’ve set it up this way, and this is something I have done, I have daughters who are 20 and 13. When we handed over devices, and I think you may have done this too, we were like, “This never goes in your bedroom, ever, ever in a 24 hour day.” This is easy to set up because the kid who’s asking for a phone will agree to anything.

Reena Ninan:
This is so true.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
… to get the phone.

Reena Ninan:
This is so true.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Anything.

Reena Ninan:
I put vacuuming once a week on the list.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Absolutely.

Reena Ninan:
It didn’t last for more than two weeks, but-

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Use all your leverage in this moment. So if you haven’t yet given a kid a device, make this a non-negotiable, they will agree to it. And I can say from my own parenting experience, if you set it up that way, it’s not that hard to maintain because it just becomes the way we do things. If you want to walk it back, I think then you can say, “We never see you. We want you out of your room. We want you to see more than the top of your head.” So you can start to walk it back, but the keeping it out of their rooms, that alone goes a long, long way. And then you can say, “Not at the table, not on short car rides, not on a walk, not when we’re having family time.” Put some parameters so that you can see some eyeballs.

Reena Ninan:
That’s great. And I have found setting that up early is really a game changer because they abide by it. But what do you do when they slip or what do you do when you haven’t instilled that early on?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It’s tough, right? So one of the big things about keeping it out of the bedroom is that it disrupts sleep.
And we know this. I think families need to make their own choices here. If you have any reason to think a kid’s technology is disrupting their sleep, I think then you say either it comes out of your room or it does not disrupt your sleep, like you make the call, but it has to come out if it’s disrupting sleep. So I think that that’s a really important one. But I will tell you, my 20 year old daughter recently said to me, “I really did not like the rule of not taking my phone in my room as a kid. I really feel like it was the right rule.” So if you’re having this knockdown drag out in your own house, your 20 year old may come to you someday and say, “Actually, that was not the worst idea you ever had as a parent.”

Reena Ninan:
That’s great.
And you have told me one thing since the beginning of our friendship to do, I have never, this is one piece of advice I have not done that I’m struggling with is, Reena, do not charge your phone in- your personal phone in your bedroom. You have told me this, that I need to stop, but I feel like a chain smoker who just wants to give it up but can’t.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Because it’s addictive.

Reena Ninan:
It is.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It is. We all know this, right? These are designed to be addictive. So sleep is the glue that holds human beings together. This is true for our kids. This is true for us. It’s also easier to enforce the rule of no phones in bedrooms if you say the same for yourselves as you do for your kids.

Reena Ninan:
Because they see you modeling it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
They see you modeling it. And yet, and I will say this, we have aging parents, right? So we need to have some sense of access. Okay. Then you can put it outside your door with a do not disturb override that if a certain phone number comes, it’s going to come through. There are ways to work around. This is actually why we’ve kept a landline.

Reena Ninan:
You still have a landline?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Because my parents and my in- laws are the only people who call it.

Reena Ninan:
You guys are the last three in America to have a landline.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
But that’s why we don’t have our phones in our rooms at night because the landline will ring.

Reena Ninan:
It’s worth the, what is it, $3 a month or something now?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I don’t even know.

Reena Ninan:
That’s great.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Division of labor, not my department at home.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah. That’s great. So if we were to do a digital wellbeing checklist, like a checkup, what would you have on that list and what should parents sort of walk themselves through?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
One thing I would start with is once we’re into kids actually looking at, let’s say they’ve aged into social media, the toxic content thing is no joke. And this is-

Reena Ninan:
What do you mean by toxic content?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Toxic content. I am talking about content that promotes eating disordered behavior or unhealthy exercise.

Reena Ninan:
You mean so the social media just keeps serving you up these things that you don’t even realize is getting into your brain?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Serves it up. It comes into your feed. It doesn’t matter if your kid searched for it or not. These things will pop in, hate based content for sure. Violent or degrading content. And I think that it’s, I find it very hard to stomach and it is a reality that we have to confront. Once kids are onto social media, they will see this stuff. There’s no getting around that right now. And so it’s critically important that parents be very, very mindful of their kids’ age and ability to handle these things well, and that they’d be ready to have conversations with their kids about what they are going to see when they get online.

Reena Ninan:
One of the most popular episodes we have ever done on our podcast, you came to me at the start of the first season in 2020 and you said, “I’d really love to do an episode on porn.” And I was like, “What?” None of my friends are talking about their kids watching porn. “What is going on in your neighborhood?” And you’re like, “It’s not my neighborhood. Trust me on this one. Parents, the kids end up stumbling on porn, parents don’t realize it. And then the parents are too embarrassed or ashamed to tell their friends. Who wants to tell their friends? My kid at 13 is looking at porn, right?”

Dr. Lisa Damour:
No, they just call me.

Reena Ninan:
They call you.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah, they call me.

Reena Ninan:
They call you.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And I’m like, don’t worry. This is the fifth call this week.

Reena Ninan:
But it’s one of our most popular episodes.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yes. Kids find their way to porn. Either if they have access to a browser, they will search for it or they’ll be on the bus. This is not unusual for a kid to be like, “Look at this.” Or the sweet boy in my practice who went searching for Dick’s Sporting Goods and-

Reena Ninan:
Oh boy.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
… found a lot more than he bargained for. So if you’re not there yet, I know, I know. This is the good thing and the interesting thing about being a clinician, you hear it all. When the time came to give my older daughter access to a phone with a browser, which again, you can hold off.
Texting, no browser, no social media, that works great for a long time. We went on a walk around the block so we did not have to look at each other. And I was like, “You’re going to get a phone with a browser. My number one worry is that you’re going to see porn one way or another. This is going to be something that comes into your life.” I said, “When it happens,” not if, I hate to say that, but when. “I want you to know most pornography depicts a pretty dark and loveless corner of the sexual landscape. This is not the sex life you should be looking forward to or don’t worry about this. Also, I’m here and we can talk about it. No shame. I can answer any questions because it’s going to freak you out.”
And it was just good to sort of lay that groundwork. So I think that’s something we need to be, if we’re talking about real digital wellbeing, this has got to be on there. I would also say keeping phones out of bedrooms, 100%. And I would say one of the most useful ways I like to think about like a family wellbeing checklist is not necessarily being against technology, but being for all the things that help kids thrive.
So lots of sleep, lots of physical activity, lots of in-person time with friends, helping out around the house, helping out around the community, if they’re in the school year, studying with focus. So I like thinking about boxing it out with all of the stuff that is nourishing for development and then what’s left is then up for negotiation.

Reena Ninan:
That makes good sense. I just want to remind everyone, as Lisa reminded everyone at the top, we’re going to take questions. We’ve got a couple folks with white shirts, as you can see coming down the aisle. So in just a few minutes, we’ll be asking those questions.
I want to ask you a little bit about, which I think is cool and I hope I can let out this secret. You have been quietly advising Disney Pixar on the new Inside Out 2, which I’m super excited about. What do you think the lessons of that … That was such a special movie for my kids because I felt we could talk about emotions after that.
What do you think from a digital standpoint you’ve learned and what have you sort of helped Disney think? Because pop culture really influences our own wellbeing, right?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It does. So yeah, so in 2020, Disney approached me to start thinking with them about this film that comes out in just a couple of weeks and it is so good. And I was under a non-disclosure agreement and almost exploded, but I actually managed. And there’s so much I’m excited about, about this film, but there’s something in it that will be a huge gift to families around digital technology. This is no secret. One of the new characters is Envy.

Reena Ninan:
Envy.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Envy. There’s four new emotions who join. Anxiety, Embarrassment, Enui, who’s this very bored and over it emotion and Envy.

Reena Ninan:
Cool.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And when we look at the research on how social media harms kids, one of the things that does rise to the top is social comparison. When kids are looking at what’s online and then feeling less than relative to it. So Pixar just is serving up this lob to families of making Envy a character. She’s adorable. And so one of the ways that this can really help us as families is over the dinner table, we can start to say, so I was looking online and I felt envy when I saw these lovely vacation photos from this other family.

Reena Ninan:
Oh, that’s good.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Have you felt envy when you’re looking online? And so you can start to have a conversation about social comparison. And one thing that I just think is so cool in the research on emotions is that the mere act of naming an emotion brings it down to size. You don’t actually have to do anything beyond say the words. It’s like a magic.

Reena Ninan:
You know what’s the Lisa phrase I love? I talk a lot in the podcast about Lisa language because I literally take your phrases and use them at home, but you say if you can name it, you can tame it. I love that line. If you can name it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yep, exactly. And so for your child to say over the dinner table, “Oh yeah, I felt envy when I saw this and this online,” that’s a solution unto itself. And I’m so grateful for Pixar putting that adorable character in because when we think about digital technology, this is a big deal.

Reena Ninan:
I can’t wait. That sounds really exciting. So we, if you guys see up at the top, if you have a question, if you can just raise your hand and got a question up here, we’re going to take your questions over the next few minutes. And if you could maybe tell us, if you feel comfortable sharing your name, if you don’t, you don’t have to and maybe where you’re from and we’d love to hear from you.

Audience Question (Natalie):
Hi, I’m Natalie Fine, Gen X, proud parent of a 15 year old. Some of you may have heard or read Governor Hulkal here in New York is very close to having worked with legislators to sign something that will be pretty monumental that could ban cell phones in schools. And one of the things that I was so happy about when my son was in a middle school was they had to drop the phone in a basket in homeroom and they got it back at the end of the day. But I can tell you now that doesn’t happen in high school, public or private. And also when my son is with his friends, they’re all on their phones, including kids he doesn’t see that often. They’re all on their phones. So in light of legislation, I’m just curious, there’s one thing about parents and socialization, but what say you about the role of legislation to impact our children with digital media and phones?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I am so grateful for it. And I have to tell you, getting phones out of schools would be one of the best things we can do for our kids. There’s no question in my mind.

Reena Ninan:
But what if I need to reach my child? What if something happens at the school? What if I-

Dr. Lisa Damour:
In the same way your mom reached the school when you were a kid, we still have the landlines. There are adults with cell phones. No, it totally works.

Reena Ninan:
Got a section of applause over here.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And the reason that legislation’s so valuable is that it makes it universal because when I talk to teenagers, my way of understanding anything is asking teenagers what they think. And so if I say to them, “How would you feel about not having phones in schools?” They’ll say, “If it’s everybody, we’re cool with it. But it can’t be that some kids still have their phones and we don’t.”

Reena Ninan:
That’s a good point.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And so the legislation and any policy like that that is universal, kids will get behind it and that’s really, really valuable. And one of the things I love about taking phones out of schools is we do worry about emotion regulation in kids and we worry that having access to a happy distraction all the time undercuts their ability to regulate their own emotions. The nice thing about a school day, it will put your kid through the emotional paces, right? They will have many disappointments and many frustrations and a lot of annoyances. That gives them a good six to eight hours a day to build those muscles for dealing with those feelings.

Reena Ninan:
That’s great. Okay. Next question. Yeah, please.

Audience Question (Melissa):
Hi, Melissa Litwin, Gen X. I have a question about alternatives to screens. All of the things you describe, exercise, sports, social activities, all feel like extroversion. I have a little introvert at home and I am looking for ways to nourish that kid without screens. Thanks.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Oh, what a wonderful question.

Reena Ninan:
Great question, by the way. We just did an episode on introverts, and I hope my husband’s okay with me saying this. He’s a total introvert.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
My husband’s a total introvert. Yeah.

Reena Ninan:
But what I learned from that podcast actually changed my marriage, transformed it. Because I finally understood what introverts are going through.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Such an excellent point about all of the things I named being involving other people. And there are pithy things in psychology that get said. Most of them I disagree with because people are too complicated, but I do think there’s something really true about the idea that extroverts recharge by being with other people and introverts recharged by being alone. If you think about being a kid at school, it is really hard on introverts. It is exhausting to spend the day surrounded by so many people. And so I think that the kind of thing you can offer your introvert is to say, “If you want to use your phone, you can use this amount of time in this space, but otherwise it’s the books, it’s the crafts, it’s the activities, and just supporting those and really doing them yourself.” That’s the other thing. In my house, we’re split down the middle. My husband is highly introverted. My older daughter is highly introverted. I’m highly extroverted. My younger daughter’s highly extroverted and it means everybody’s got a model for how to do your thing.

Audience Question (Melissa):
Yeah.

Audience Question (Kathy):
Hi, I’m Kathy Thomas. And first of all, I just want to say thank you so much, Dr. Lisa. As a mother of two teens, I frequently go out for a walk listening to your podcast and I find it so incredibly reassuring and I feel so equipped with the right tools when I’m confused and stressed. And so I can’t thank you enough of what an amazing resource you’ve been to this generation of parents. I have two quick questions. We’re good about keeping phones out of our kids’ rooms at night, but given that I’m raising kids in New York City, it’s not like we have a house. So my kids, our teens, they want to be on the phone with their friends. I get it. They don’t want to be out in our small little living room. So that is one question I have for you is how do we do that when we live in a small New York apartment?
And the other thing is about walking things back. I feel like we held off, for instance, to my son was 13 to get a phone. We’ve been pretty … They know that I listen to podcasts when I come out with … They’re always like, “Oh, you’ve been listening to another parenting podcast.” It becomes a sort of slippery slope. Once you give it, it’s like before you know it, your kids like Snapchatting with somebody 150 times a day. How do we walk that back when they’re already 17 and 14 without being … I would happily take it all away from them, but I also know that that’s not useful or helpful. So what are some ways we can do that? Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Thank you. Those are wonderful questions and I think actually probably shared by many, many people. So I get it. The kids want to have space and time. And my dream scenario is that the phones and technology never go in a room in a 24 hour day. During the day, but coming out at night is a totally worthy second best. And if that is realistically what works for your family, I think that you have to kind of work with the parameters that are your family life. Okay. The walking it back, the key here, I think, is to engage your kid. And one of the things that comes up so often is like we have all of these conversations about kids and teens and social media. There’s another conversation over here, which is like trying to actually talk to your kids and teens about social media, which is like its own separate thing.
And in my experience of trying to talk to kids and teens about social media, as soon as they can smell that that’s what the conversation’s going to be about, right? They are just trying to get out of it as fast as possible with their phone. So they are nodding and smiling and they’re just like, “I’m shutting this down. I’m shutting this down. I’m out of this with my phone.”

Audience Question (Kathy):
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay. So the key here is to actually try to have an actual conversation with a kid or a teen about technology. And I think the way to say it, if you’re starting to have concerns is to say, “Let’s talk about your phone. Tell me what is working for you.” And actually, I think you should all go home and ask your kids this about technology. If you ask your kids like, “What’s working for you about technology?” You will get such an education and you’ll be so glad to know what it is they love and like, it’s really valuable to know that. If you hear them out earnestly, then say, “What’s not working?” And there is a decent chance if you have really done a job on the first question, like really listened, that your kid may say, “I end up spending more time on Snapchat than I mean to.” There is a decent chance if they feel heard on the first part that they will give you the truth on the second part. And then you can start to say, “How can I help? What have you tried? What do you want to do differently?” If they’re like, “No downsides, it’s fabulous. Me and my phone we’re out of here.” Then you can be like, “I actually, I do have some concerns. Let me run them by you. Give me your take on them.” But staying in conversation is the key here. And I will tell you, I think it’s harder to do this, to stay in meaningful conversation with kids about technology than it is in almost any other topic. They are so ready.

Reena Ninan:
Because it’s so part of their lives.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It means so much to them and they feel, and I don’t know that they’re wrong, that we don’t get it. So here we are rolling up, trying to have a conversation with them about something, but they’re like, “I understand this in a way you never will. I need you to be interested.”

Reena Ninan:
So when you’re in that first phase of making sure they don’t shut down over the conversation, what do you think works in that first part of the conversation to get them to open up to the second part?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So I think probably not a sneak attack, right? Because if you’re like, “Oh, hi, we want to talk with you about your phone.” They’re going to be like, “Whoa, where did you come from?” So I think probably it would be worthwhile to be like, “Listen, sometime this weekend we want to check in with you about where you are with your phone. We want to hear what’s working, what’s not. We’re going to give you our opinion. Get ready. And when do you want to talk about this?”

Reena Ninan:
I’m just realizing I’m an ambush parent. I give nobody any warning. I go in for the kill and deal with it when it’s appropriate on my terms.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
You and everybody else and me 90% of the time. Yeah, absolutely. But I think if we want kids to engage in a meaningful way, showing up with a full head of steam and a fully loaded agenda when they don’t even see it coming is not usually a recipe for success.

Reena Ninan:
So give them a little heads up that you want to have this conversation and that’ll make a difference.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And care about what they like. care about what they like.

Reena Ninan:
I know it’s hard to listen when you feel passionate about a certain way and direction of where you want things to go. Yes. Hi.

Audience Question (Ron):
Hey, thank you very much for this conversation. My name is Ron Kirbs from Kidas. We all know that gaming is becoming widely popular. Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft are all games that are very popular these days. You talked before about the boxes, studying, physical activities, participating in community activities. And I wanted to hear your thoughts about esports that is becoming really, really popular these days. A lot of universities have scholarships now for esports. A lot of high schools and even middle schools have varsity teams for Fortnite, Valorant, and a lot of other games. And I wanted to hear your thoughts about how parents should think about it. Should they encourage their kids to pursue those esports teams? Should they have a debate about it or is it like any other activity at school?

Reena Ninan:
That’s a great question. Esports. And at the start of the pandemic, my son was 10 and you actually said, “Go for the Xbox, get them the … ” Which was advice I never thought would come out of your mouth, but it was a game changer for my son. It was a game changer.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It’s how they socialize. A lot of 10 and 11 year old boys were living their best lives in the first part of the pandemic. Okay. I’m so glad you asked that and what a world. We never imagined this is a question we would be asking. One thing I will tell you, we did a great episode on how much gaming is too much gaming. So if you’re worried about this or wondering about it, it’s something we covered and we unpack the research a lot. Interestingly, the research doesn’t always say what we want it to say. I think especially around violent games, we want the research to say this will turn your child into a wildly violent person. We actually don’t have that data. It does affect aggression, but it’s not as sort of pronounced as we sometimes I think would hope to see in the data for what it’s worth.
But the question about supporting an esports career or the fantasy of an esports career gets back to the issue of variety. Variety is healthy for development. So let me change the model here. What if your child was into the oboe and what if your child is like, “I want to do oboe 80 hours a week.” You’d be like, “No, you can’t do oboe 80 hours a week.” You have to see people and you have to help with the dishes and you have to … So even if it’s something that we find much more sort of, I would just say culturally palatable, you can’t do one thing all the time and be a thriving, healthy, growing person. So yeah, maybe your kid’s going to get an esports scholarship that still should not be done to the exclusion of all the other things that help kids grow.

Audience Question (Gardner):
Gardener, Gen X. Curious, so much advice and guidance and thank you for providing it. Have you changed your mind about anything over the four years of this podcast being like, “Oh, I said this and actually I kind of feel differently now.”

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I really appreciate that question. I really do. Because I mean, if you’re good at your job, you’re trying to grow and think. You’ll be surprised by what I’ll say. I’ve gotten more relaxed about insisting that parents take phones out of a kid’s bedroom if it’s already there, and I’ll tell you why. When we look at the research on adolescent mental health, the single most powerful force for adolescent mental health is strong relationships with caring adults. And I know there are families whose kids have technology younger than maybe they wish they did. And this gets back to your question about your kid, how do you walk it back who have a phone in their room when they wish it weren’t, but the kid is fine, thriving, sleeping, doing okay. It’s not an interference and going to the mat with that kid to enforce a rule that will strike them as arbitrary because they’re not actually having a problem in that department stands to harm the relationship more than whatever theoretical harm is being done over here.
So I’ve actually eased on this in the name of the parent-child relationship.

Reena Ninan:
So you’re saying the parent relationship with your child is the thing that matters most when you- go back to that when you’re making a decision on where to go.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Absolutely. So if the phone is keeping the kid up, if the kid is into stuff they should not be seeing and that we know is problematic, that’s a fight worth having. If a kid is managing well, sleeping well, in good relationship with you about what they’re seeing, you feel like they’ve got it well controlled, I wouldn’t pick a fight about that because this is your relationship with your kid. So strangely, though on many things as a psychologist, I’ve become more rigid, I’ve really moved towards thinking heavily about relationship, relationship, relationship.

Reena Ninan:
So great. We’re going to have to leave it there. Lisa, I want to thank you so much for this conversation. I want to thank all of you for joining us.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Thank you.