What’s the Best Way for My Teen to Handle a Mean “Friend”?

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Reena Ninan:
Episode 207, What’s the Best Way to Handle a Mean “Friend”?
Lisa, the more I think about it, I don’t think we ever really leave the third grade when we enter the workforce.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Oh, is that right? Tell me more.

Reena Ninan:
There are people who still act like they’re in the third grade in the workforce. Why do people not grow up? It’s almost like childish behavior continues into the workforce and into the adulthood.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It does. It does. It’s true. There are entire communities that feel like a pack of seventh graders and you’re just like, come on guys.

Reena Ninan:
Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well it’s funny, To me third graders feel a little gentler.

Reena Ninan:
What you child psychologist here, the ultimate psychologist who knows what development is happening at every age level.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Third graders can be a little more easygoing. What are you thinking about in terms of behavior?

Reena Ninan:
It’s just interesting human dynamics that can play out that people see even among parent groups in sports, it doesn’t end. So okay, we’re going to talk about mean friends, but I think some of it might be therapy for parents too on some level.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Whatever works, whatever helps.

Reena Ninan:
You’re right, you’re right.
Dear Dr. Lisa, my 13-year-old daughter and I regularly listen to your podcast together. It’s provided us with important conversation topics and resulted in some terrific discussions as I drive her home after choir rehearsal or cross country practices. She and I have a joint question for you involving friend dynamics. Her current friend group is generally kind and supportive, but there is one girl who seems to have changed in the past few months. She’s now hostile towards my daughter trying to demean her publicly and she often tries to exclude her from casual group interactions. The girl’s behavior is only directed at my daughter and none of the other girls in the group openly acknowledge or address it. This girl is aggressive enough that my daughter dreads school and my daughter’s feeling frustrated and disappointed with her other friends for not intervening. I don’t know the kids involved very well and in a world of social media, my middle school experience was very different than hers and I worry about giving her bad advice. Should she denounce this girl and blow up the friend group? Should she suffer in silence? My daughter would like to ask you what she should do and I would like to know how or if to advise her. Please help. Sincerely worried mom.
Oh my goodness, there’s so much here. And I just got to ask you first off, why do girls or I made me say girls or boys? I think this can happen to both. Why do they change suddenly and then just be so hostile and turn on their friends?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, I want to think that’s right, but can we just take a beat on the sweetness of this mom and kid listening to the episode together, listening to the podcast together and writing in together like, oh my gosh, Reena, that is the coolest.

Reena Ninan:
This is an Ask Lisa moment. I will tell you to hear.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think it’s special. I think it’s special.

Reena Ninan:
I think it’s great, but by the way, I know a lot of parents who play certain episodes for their kids because it’s an easy way to have a conversation.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I’m actually hearing the same thing too when I’m out and about. People will say to me, I didn’t want to talk about drugs, porn, whatever, but we just put on the episode, listen to it together. It felt

Reena Ninan:
It educates. It educates.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
We got it done. We had a good conversation, but I didn’t have to be the one to bring it up in the particular way.

Reena Ninan:
So we welcome joint letters anytime. This is fantastic.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Joint letters, joint listening, and I also think this is probably a good moment to say, Reena, there is nowhere in any of my work or in any episode of this podcast where we say things we would not want kids to hear.

Reena Ninan:
I guess I never realized that because I’ve always felt it’s like a group of parents until recently. I’ve been hearing in the past year, really so many parents listening with their kids. So I love this about this letter.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I bristle at the idea of we’re having a secret conversation that children can’t hear. And so I think we just naturally go there. I will tell you one more thing and then we’re going to dive into this letter. We started this podcast when my older daughter was a high school student and she let me know that many of her friends were listening and I was like, why are they listening? Okay. They were listening for two reasons. One, to give her a hard time every once in a while, but based on the episode. Remember years ago we did that episode about my kid’s room is a hot mess. They would then text her and be like, Hey, what’s going on with your room? They would treat her as though every episode was about her. But then the other reason I said, but no really, why are they listening? And she said they’re trying to figure out their parents.

Reena Ninan:
Oh.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I thought that was so interesting that there was a sense that it gave them a perspective on their parents that they were wanting to have. So anyone who wants to listen can listen. We try to make sense of young people and we try to make sense of adults and hopefully in making sense of those two sides of this, we can all come together more closely. Alright, back to this letter.

Reena Ninan:
Speaking of elite groups, why do I hear this a lot though? This is not a one-off by the way. That suddenly your friends, your friends, your friends, and then boom, out of nowhere, at least I don’t see warning signals. You’re not.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Something shifted with this kid and that change that is described in the letter, this kid used to be nice to my kid and now she’s giving my kid a really hard time and just my kid the hard time basically we’re never going to know what happened. I will tell you, Reena, the longer I practice, the more humble I am about having any knowledge about something I did not watch with my own two eyes. I will sometimes hear a story from different sides and just be like, oh boy, you wouldn’t even recognize that story. It’s so different coming from the two different people. But what I will tell you is my spidey sense tells me envy is at work. I don’t know why this kid seems to suddenly want to take the 13-year-old who asked the question down, but she does being described that she is undermining her. She’s trying to leave her out. And one of the things we know about envy is that it’s got good and bad sides. Envy can be okay if we admire and aspire to be like somebody and we better ourselves in that effort. But what we call malicious envy, we actually call it benign envy and malicious envy is the, I’m going to take you down to better, to be the better one.
And there’s something about how this is written that just gives me the sense that the kid who is suddenly being mean is feeling very envious of the kid who with her mom sent him this letter and is looking to take her down.

Reena Ninan:
And on some level, now that you mentioned it, she’s in cross country, she’s in choir group. She sounds like a very talented young lady.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
She’s got a good working relationship with her family, right? I mean there’s a lot to like about this kid. You can just feel it in the letter.

Reena Ninan:
Yep, yep, that’s right. It seems like her and her mom are tight and they’re on this, which people don’t realize this can be a great source of envy for people who might not have a family that’s the same way. But one thing that really drives me nuts that I really, if there’s one thing I try to instill in my kids is when to speak up when people are doing something that is wrong. I talk about it all the time, it’s so important to me, but I know it’s easy for me to say, why do you think none of the girls are saying anything to have her back?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay, so we’re talking 13, so we’re seventh or eighth grade. We are talking kids who at a marrow level, in their bones level are anxious about being excluded. We really need to always bring this framework that when you are in seventh or grade belonging, being a part of things is like oxygen. Absolutely oxygen. It eases as 10th graders can be like, you know what? I’m going to go do my own thing. Seventh and eighth graders, they need to feel part of a group. And what this child who’s being mean is skywriting is that she will turn on people and she will be unkind and she will threaten their group membership. And so my hunch is that the letter writers, friends are really torn. They’re like, oh, we hate watching how you get treated, but we are not about to put a target on our own back by taking that kid on. And my hunch is that they are aware of this behavior and consciously or not are making a calculated decision of like, oh, that stinks for you, but I am too anxious knowing that that kid will cross a line. I am too anxious to put myself in her path.

Reena Ninan:
A couple of episodes ago, I think at some point in this season you talked about social power that sometimes mean kids. It’s like that’s their social power that they have and people kind of fall in line.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It is the fastest way to get social power is to make it clear that you’re willing to be mean. The thing most kids won’t. Lots of kids want to be mean. And it’s not unusual for kids to be really well-behaved all day and come home and tell their loving family the mean thoughts they had or the mean things they wanted to say, which I have no problem with that as long as they behave as they should out in the world, most kids won’t actually act on it. And so if you distinguish yourself as somebody who is willing to go after another kid who has done nothing, you stand out.

Reena Ninan:
And speaking of standing out, I want to tell her, which is not, I’m not the psychologist here, so don’t take my advice, but I want her to stand up and denounce the friend and walk away and leave them all behind.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, this is what the parent is asking. Should I tell my kid to renounce the friend and forget you guys, you are being mean to me and you are not defending me like I am.

Reena Ninan:
Bye.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Bye. I’m off. Okay. Wouldn’t that be beautiful?

Reena Ninan:
I know.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s something so gratifying about picturing it.

Reena Ninan:
By the way, I could never have done that at 13. I’d like to say public too.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Nobody can do this at 13. Nobody can do this at 13 unless you happen to have some extraordinarily fabulous backup friendship group waiting to embrace you and give you a seat at their lunch table. This is not safe. And again, it’s funny. What I’m thinking about here is so often people will be like, oh, I have a question about my kid. And they’ll start asking the question, and as soon as they take a breath, I’m like, how old is your kid? Because the developmental moment the kid is in dictates the frame in which everything is being taken in. So I know I’m beating this to death, but 13, you are scared. I would say almost it feels like to death of being excluded left out, pushed away later in development, earlier in development. It doesn’t have the same literal terror around it. So what can sound good to us in our middle aged? Like, forget you guys. Not a possibility When

Reena Ninan:
Interesting.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
this is the oxygen you’re breathing.

Reena Ninan:
What should she do, Lisa? What would you advise her to do? Should she just continue to take it?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I don’t think she should continue to take it. Nobody feels good about that advice either, right?

Reena Ninan:
And she’s saying she doesn’t like going to school. Rightfully so I can understand why she dread school.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah, that’s a problem. That’s a real problem. Okay, so here is something I have learned along the way that I think applies here. Every move we make to try to address a situation has unintended consequences. It unfolds in ways that we didn’t see coming, didn’t expect and may not want. So the thing I have learned clinically is process, process, process. Don’t worry about outcome, worry about a really careful process. And in stuff as sticky and tricky and delicate as this, I always think what is the smallest thing that could happen to try to nudge things in a better direction? Do that thing and then see the ramifications of what occurs, right?

Reena Ninan:
You tell me often half steps, sometimes reading in parenting, you can take half steps, right?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Half steps. Okay, so I’m thinking on this one. What’s a ninth step? Right? A ninth of a whole step, right? Something really tiny. So what I picture is I wonder about saying to this kid in the friendship group, is there someone who is really a little closer to you or really rock solid or someone you feel you could have a really good conversation with that’s unlikely to backfire. And to that kid in person, not by text, not by any digital means you say, Hey, have you noticed that Susie Q is like, she’s given me a hard time these days. Just ask the question. That is the smallest thing I can think of. Have no agenda beyond just laying the question on the table and see what comes of it.

Reena Ninan:
But what if they’re like, yeah, oh yeah, of course I’ve seen all of it, but then nobody does anything. And then what does she do?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay, so maybe the kid’s like, oh my gosh, yes, I’ve totally seen it. Then I think the next half step is for the kid to be like, it’s really painful for me.

Reena Ninan:
Acknowledge it. Say it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Tiniest thing. It looks like I’m putting up with it. It may very well be that these other kids are like, yeah, I hate watching it, but she seems okay, so I’m not going to take my chances and take this kid on. So I think again, kids are good kids to say, yeah, it’s actually, it really hurts. I am trying to not look hurt at school, but actually it’s really hurting. Then see what happens. I think most kids would be like, yeah, that’s not okay. Or that suddenly you’re throwing it into this multidimensional universe of variables that can come in and start to adjust and make changes. But that’s how we want to see this is the complexity of the social dynamics among kids, especially in grades when social dynamics are so fragile and so fraught. I picture Reena, the idea of walking into a seventh grade lunchroom. There’s 90 dimensions of activity going on. Adults may be able to perceive two of those dimensions. We have to work with these variables and let them unfold and just nudge, see what happens, and then react to that reaction.

Reena Ninan:
So what if she tries that takes the half step, it doesn’t work. Are there any other options? Any other things she could do?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Okay, so let’s say she says to the kid, are you seeing this? And the kid’s like, yeah, I’m totally seeing it. And then she says, actually, it’s really painful. And the kid goes, yeah, that’s too bad. I mean, it just doesn’t move on it. Then I would say, let it go. Let that go for a minute, regroup, revisit, and then I wonder if there is some value in actually responding to the kid in real time who’s being mean, right? So I wonder if that’s the next approach. And again, the tiniest the tiniest response. So not showing up and being like, what are you doing? We can’t be friends. But if in front of the peers the kid says something mean, I wonder if it’s as simple as this kid going, ouch, ouch. And just standing up for herself in that small way. I wonder what that would do to that dynamics.

Reena Ninan:
So what do you anticipate that would do? She just seems like a mean person who won’t even care. It’s like a tiny little speed bump. But you think that doing something that small and seeing where it lands could be a good option.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I think it’s worth a try. I think it’s absolutely worth a try because either she will be worse, which may inspire the other kids to action. Finally like, okay, you are making it clear that this is painful. She is not stopping. Maybe now we need to do something. Or I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s sort of just surprised, right? Like, oh, this kid’s actually going to stand up for herself and do it in a way that is fair and gentle. There are kids who will give another kid a hard time until it’s clear that they’re going to get a reaction that is a kid standing up. If you’re giving a kid a hard time and they’re not reacting and you feel like you’re gaining power all the way, what’s to stop you?

Reena Ninan:
No one’s ever put it that way before. And so I get it now. Why you taking that half step and saying something like that, which isn’t provocative, but at least lets them know I didn’t really like that.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
And even that, I love that, Reena, what you just said. You know what? Actually I didn’t really like that. That’s another thing that can be said or hey, that doesn’t feel fair mean, but small things and I think we’re so inclined to the grand gesture that is going to cause more ramifications than you meant for it too, right? Start small, see what happens. See if a tweak can actually get you where you want to go.

Reena Ninan:
Do you have any other advice for this mom and her daughter?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s something so wonderfully humble about the mom and aware of, it’s really hard to advise my kid. The mom is saying in part because there’s the social media ramifications that you and I did not have, this parent did not have, but I actually think truly, even if we had a world without social media, trying to advise seventh and eighth graders on their social lives is something that all adults should be extraordinarily humble about. There’s just so many dynamics at work that we cannot, I think be as helpful as we wish we could. My guidance to the mom who wants to be helpful but doesn’t want to give bad guidance, that’s what she’s worried about, is to say two things. One is that your kid can talk with you about this is huge. Whatever you’re doing that’s created the conditions where your kid is sharing this and asking guidance and thinking with you, and then writing into some strange two ladies at a podcast to try to sort this out.

Reena Ninan:
I love it. I love it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
There’s so much goodness in this, right? Yeah, and so much support. The next thing I think is continuing to say to the kid, what could you try? What have you thought about? What comes to mind? And really counting on her creativity and trusting that she’s got good problem solving. And I know I said two things, but then let me say three. Any adult in this situation, they’re going to want to be supportive. They’re going to want to be helpful, is also going to want to have their ear open for bullying. And bullying is, again, it’s where one kid is going after another kid who’s unable to defend themselves. We’re not there yet. This kid’s still trying to figure out what to do, but so far she has not defended herself. And so far this has been a repeated process. So it is so far moving towards bullying. And so I want this family to be thinking about is this getting to a place where she really cannot defend herself, is continuing to struggle, cannot with guidance and advice, find ways to stand up for herself or fix this. I would not let this go on very much longer without really taking that question very seriously. And then if that is what the family is starting to be concerned about, reach out to the school.
Ask the school to start a process of quietly and carefully investigating this. That is how we handle bullying. You start to look at it very carefully because the goal in handling bullying is not to actually make it worse. Sometimes families call another family, or sometimes schools go in in a very hand handed way and then the kid who’s on the receiving end starts to get more, which is the last thing we want. So systematic, careful. I love research-based approaches. Olweus has a wonderful research-based approach that I often reference. Dan Olweus, O-L-W-E-U-S. His book, “Bullying at School” is one of my favorite. If you can have a favorite book about bullying, it’s my favorite book about bullying because he just makes the case for we handle bullying differently than we handle kids not getting along. So that is the other thing I would want very much on this family’s mind.

Reena Ninan:
And we’ll have those details on that book, bullying at School in our show notes as well. Lisa, you were talking earlier about sometimes, especially when you haven’t gone through social media as this mom grew up with it, is there a point when parents should actually stand back and not advice on something?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
One time to not give advice is if nobody’s asking for your advice.

Reena Ninan:
Great point. Great point.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Nothing is as unwelcome as unwanted advice or unsolicited advice, even if it’s brilliant. So I think that the hardest thing for any loving adult in this situation would be to hear about this thing and not step in right away with like, well, you know what you should do? What’s really lovely about this kid is she’s opening the door. She’s like, help me figure this out. What should I do? The question is being called, and one of the things I learned in my training is you can’t answer a question that hasn’t been asked. The kid’s not asking, what should I do? Don’t tell them what they should do. Listen, listen, listen. And then you may have a genius idea at which point you say, I have an idea. Do you want my help? Knock on the door, get the kid to open the door. Then give your advice. But don’t throw advice at kids who are not asking for advice or anybody really.

Reena Ninan:
It’s universal. It’s helps our kids. When you do give advice, and let’s say it might be bad advice, right? We don’t have Dr. Lisa with us everywhere all times. What do you do if you think you might’ve given bad advice?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Well, so I actually think you can prevent this on the front end.

Reena Ninan:
Oh, really?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Which is I think you say to a kid, okay, here’s what I’m thinking. And I’ve often said this to kids clinically. I’ll say, okay, well here’s what I’m thinking from where I sit. What if you did this? Here’s what I’m imagining. And I’m like, okay, I’m giving you that. But you put it through your knowledge base of subtle dynamics that I do not know, and that may not even be nameable, but that you have an understanding of and you tell me if you think that might be helpful. So it’s no handing down. I mean, it’s like, here’s the idea I have run it up against your data and see if you like where it’s going. And I will also, when providing language, I will say things like, okay, here’s my middle-aged lady version of what I think you should say. Like, Hey, that did not feel good. How would you say that kids will be like, I would go, bruh.

Reena Ninan:
Of course.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
That will do! Fantastic if that is how you signal. What was that? You say that.

Reena Ninan:
In your own language. Yeah, I think we don’t really talk about when you think you may have given bad advice that you thought would’ve been good, but because the dynamics are different with social media.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
It’s all so complicated. It’s all so Complicated.

Reena Ninan:
So Lisa, what do you have for us for Parenting to Go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:
So I’m thinking about this parent and how mad she must be at the kid who’s hurting her kid. And I think most parents have been there at one point where there’s a kid who hurts their kid and you are just angry in a loving mama bear Protective way here, I think is a big challenge to which we should hold ourselves not talking bad about that other kid in the community. Development is long. Good kids do dumb things. Our own kids will do dumb things. And so my guidance in general is that when another kid hurts your kid, talk about it. Maybe with your far away friends in another state. Talk about it if you have a partner at home. But when you’re out and about in the community, I think it’s a really good thing to give that kid a chance to grow and change over time and not be somebody who has spoken badly about another person’s kid.

Reena Ninan:
Learning that lesson early on, it can be so valuable later in adulthood.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
Yeah.

Reena Ninan:
I’ll see you next week.

Dr. Lisa Damour:
I’ll see you next week.