How Should My Son Deal with Trash-Talking Friends?

The Ask Lisa Podcast does not constitute medical advice and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have concerns about your child’s well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional.

The following transcript has been automatically generated by an AI system and should be used for informational purposes only. We cannot guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or timeliness of the information provided.

Reena Ninan:

Episode 180 5, how should my son deal with trash Talking friends? What’s interesting about this time this school year is your friends kind of make some new friends. You’re seeing the social groups setting in with sports and new teachers. I kind of like this time of year, I feel like you can get into new groups.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Kids are figuring it out. It’s all very tentative for now. They’ve got some of the friends, they hung out with some of the kids who changed a lot over the summer, right? I mean this is a time of year, especially for those of us with middle schoolers where kids come back to school looking really different.

Reena Ninan:

Yeah,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

That’s right. Or if you’re starting in

Reena Ninan:

Flux, it’s all in flux. Or if you’re starting high school, it’s also a new big chapter, but what do you do if you don’t like the friends that your kids might be hanging out with? We got this letter I want to read to you. Hi, Dr. Lisa. My eighth grade son is dealing with a dynamic at school where the way that the boys relate to one another is mainly by ragging on each other, making competitive, somewhat nasty comments. Basically, you suck. I’m faster than you at track. I’m better than you at sports. Why are you even sitting here? These aren’t your friends, et cetera. It should be noted that my son is reasonably popular and is friends with the kids who talk like this. It’s not like he’s an outsider. I’m just trying to figure out if this is normal developmentally at this age or if this is a dynamic that’s particular at our school.

My son is a more sensitive soul and he’s having trouble dealing with this because if he responds in the way, that’s probably correct, so to speak. He feels like a jerk because the only way really to respond is to say something like, no, you suck or F you about that kind of a thing. But he confessed to me that makes him feel bad because he thinks it’s mean. Tell me, what can I do to support and guide him? Okay. Where do we begin with this one? With this letter? I mean, first off, I guess her first question is, is this just a thing at her school or are you seeing this developmentally

Dr. Lisa Damour:

With other boys? It is not just a thing at her school. I wish it were, I wish it weren’t even at her school, but I am hearing this across the board among boys. I would say that it hits its height. Her son’s an eighth grader. I would say it’s sort of, she’s in peak moment with this, but it starts younger, fifth, sixth, seventh for sure. But it doesn’t last forever. In my experience and when I talk to people who work closely with boys, some of this is going on in ninth, 10th, it’s trailing off by 11th grade. If you’re still doing this stuff, nobody’s got any patience for it, but at the moment her kid is in. This is standard practice among boys. Not all boys. Not all boys, among subsets of boys.

Reena Ninan:

Okay, so what exactly is this behavior? What does it look like? What can you tell us about this sort of developmental moment? Okay,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

So it’s interesting. We focus a lot on mean girls.

Reena Ninan:

Yeah, yeah, you’re

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Right. And there’s reasons that we do because girls can be very mean and when they’re mean, you hear about it. This kind of meanness among boys is often done just joking. There’s a lot of just joking, which is such a trap because what’s said is hurtful, but if you react, you’re being a baby, which is probably the nicest word a kid could come up with.

Reena Ninan:

True,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Right? There’s a lot more way more offensive words the kids will use. And so the kids on the receiving end of this are left with these terrible choices of participating, pretending like it doesn’t bother them or falling apart, at which point or showing that they’re hurt, at which point they actually subject themselves to more punishment. So it’s like yucky, okay, why is this happening?

Reena Ninan:

Yeah, why do they do this? I don’t get it. Why do they need

Dr. Lisa Damour:

To do this? I think the way to think about it is this is about social power and this is about wanting to have and maintain social power. And the reason kids worry about social power in the middle school especially is that they have, I think about this, they’ve left the shore of the comfort of their family life. They are working towards the shore of peer connections. They are very anxious and feeling like you’ve got social power and kids want to be close to you and aren’t going to take you on is reassuring to some kids. And unfortunately Rena in middle school, the shortest route to social power is to demonstrate the willingness to be mean because not everybody will do it. And if you will do it right, if you’re a kid who’s especially good at it or willing, what happens very quickly, and again, this is pretty middle school contained, but it’s true across genders is the kids are like, I want to be on that kid’s good side because I know what it looks like to be on their bad side. That kid will bring it. I don’t want to do it. So it garners social power very rapidly to be willing to be a jerk. And this is true for girls, it’s true for boys. It looks a little different in the genders,

Reena Ninan:

But I think that’s what’s happening. What do you think? I’ve never had someone explain it to me that way. It makes such sense, but I don’t understand why we can’t do it the other way. Where, how or how nice can you be to people or just treat people with basic humanity? You don’t have to be over the top kind. Why does it have to be this way?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah, it’s not great. It’s not great. And there are lots of kids who are really, who are operating separately from this, who are not engaging in this. And I’m talking boys, I’m talking girls, I’m talking all kids, but this is not rare and this is not marginal in schools. I think the other thing that happens is that kids who are doing this tend to be, and I think this word came up popular and by popular meaning, not necessarily well-liked, but having a lot of social power that they hold. And popular kids actually take up a lot of the oxygen in a middle school. So even though there a subset and there’s a lot of what I call ’em low flyers, much happier low flyers who are hanging out with their friends, having a genuinely good time. I like that. Doing their little things that are quirky and wonderful and endlessly delightful to me as a mother of a middle schooler myself, the kids who are engaging in this kind of stuff, they’re getting the headlines in the middle school lunchroom.

Reena Ninan:

So what do you do if you’re a boy? What’s your advice as a parent if maybe you’re being bullied or the trash talking, just not your thing. Do you think it’s odd or normal that this kid actually is very sensitive to this, he doesn’t feel good and does not want to be part of it, but if he’s not, he’s going to be ostracized. What would you say to that parent in dealing with that?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

What you’re asking, first of all, is it unusual that this boy, yes, no, and I think that basically there’s categories of, we’ll just stick on the boys thing, categories of boys in this dynamic. There’s some who maybe somehow just don’t mind it. I think that there are very few,

There are some who just can’t take it and who express vulnerability and then regret it. And then there are a lot of kids who are spending a lot of time pretending like it doesn’t hurt them. And what I hear, I was at a couple boys schools last year, both at the high school level and also at the middle school level. What I hear is often this kind of stuff will go on and kids will be doing it, giving it, giving it, giving it, and then a kid will finally haul off and punch another kid. It’ll look like it’s all fun and games and then a kid reacts very strongly or a kid starts crying and then it gets uglier very fast. So I would say most kids are not enjoying this and most boys are struggling to figure out how to deal with it anyway.

Reena Ninan:

What do you advise parents who are dealing with trash, talking, bullying or the kids are just forced to take it and take it. The parents are told not to intervene. What’s your advice to them?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Okay, so you’re saying bullying. So I actually want to pull that one to the side because bullying is different and important for us to really tackle separately. So bullying is when a kid is on the receiving end of mistreatment from either an individual or a group of kids and unable to defend themselves.

If that’s happening, you work very carefully, call the adults at the building, say, this is what I’m hearing. You handle that. You take it very seriously. Try not to overreact, make it more complicated, but definitely look into it. Then there’s this stuff which is the kid can take it, he can defend himself. He doesn’t like doing it, then he feels like a jerk if he’s participated in it. So what do we say to this kid? Okay, Rena, I wish this, I hate what I’m about to say. Here’s what we don’t say to this kid. We don’t say you need to tell them guys, this is not a nice way for us to be with each other.

Reena Ninan:

That’s what I would tell. That would be my advice. Laughing

Dr. Lisa Damour:

That kid will be like, thanks a lot lady, you’ve done me no good. Right? I mean our fantasy of what we wish would work and what actually goes down in a middle school lunch trip are two different things and I want to come back to that. So I think if you’re going to give guidance, I think the kinds of guidance you can give are to say things like, look, they’re trying to provoke you. See if you can just resist being provoked. If you want to shake your head when they do it, if you want to change the subject, if that’ll work, is there something that can help derail this thinking with your kid about it? You don’t have to participate, but it may be hard to avoid. I think the other thing, and this is going to feel like a century for the kid, I think you could say to this kid, this isn’t going to go on forever. You are in the worst of this developmentally age wise,

If these guys are still doing this in a year and a half, no one’s going to go for it. So I mean a year and a half in their life of a middle schooler, you might as well be talking about middle age down the line. But I think that there’s that. But Rena, as you were reading the letter, what I started to think about, and I’ve been sort of chewing on this and this is what I wanted to come back to. I think so often in parents saying there’s stuff that comes up that we want to fix that we cannot fix. I think this is a good example of that where we want it to stop. We want to have magic words that we can give our kids that they use those magic words and then suddenly eighth grade boys stop acting like it’s great words.

And I’m thinking about last week’s episode where we’re talking about adolescent girls and coming up against the realities of women’s bodies and how they’re seen in the world. We’re not fixing that and it’s so hard as a parent, but I can still sleep at night in this parent guidance business because there’s so many things that we can do at home that help even if they don’t fix it. And so I think that the parent can give some advice, she can ask what the kids tried. She can ask if the kid’s seen anybody handle this successfully, but I think there’s a bunch of stuff that could still happen at home that would help even if they fall short of fixing the situation. So tell me about those things. What can we do at home that could fortify them? Okay, so let’s start with some simple stuff. So the kid comes home and clearly this kid is talking to his parents about this and it sounds like a sweetheart of a kid who’s like, I feel like a jerk when I’m participating, but I don’t know what to do. Honestly, Rena, step number one, never fails. Okay, that stinks buddy. I am sorry. I’m sorry you are put in that position

Reena Ninan:

And why that I feel like they would take that as me being pandering or kind of not really authentic, but why does saying empathizing and saying, okay, that really, I would probably say that sucks. But you can say, that sucks. I would say like, boy, that really sucks. Tell me what does that do?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

What does it do? It gives the kid a reality check, which is not small because here’s what’s happening. He’s sitting at the lunch table, everybody’s doing this. He feels like, what’s wrong with me? That this is making me so uncomfortable? You guys are doing a really good job of either being okay with it or seeming to be okay with it. I feel like maybe I’m getting this wrong. So when I walk in the door and I describe it to a loving adult and they’re like, okay, yeah, that is bananas. They’re like, okay, I am grounded in reality. Thank you. Those guys are being bananas, not me.

Reena Ninan:

That is huge. You’re teaching them, they’re doing it. But I know in my mind, I don’t have to worry about this.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah, this is not okay.

Reena Ninan:

This is not okay

Dr. Lisa Damour:

And it’s not okay, not just because it doesn’t feel okay to me. I actually have trusted people who are telling me this is not okay. We to think about that for a minute. The difference between sitting in a situation and being like, this feels weird, but I can’t tell versus this feels wrong and I know what’s wrong. Yeah, that matters. Yes, that matters.

Reena Ninan:

Yes, yes, yes. My dog agrees with you. Thank you, Colonel. That really matters. Street cheer and your dog feels very strongly about that. So tell me more. I want to keep going down this path. What else helps at home?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Okay, so yeah, we’re going to headline all of this, helping without fixing because you can’t fix,

Reena Ninan:

Okay?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I think another thing that helps is actually just engaging it very seriously. So you start with, oh man, that sucks. That is completely not okay. And I’m sorry, you’re put in that position and then you can say, what do you make of it? What do you think it’s about for these guys? And just ask the kid, I made it with you. Tell me more. I’m curious, and I’m not going to come in loud and heavy and full of judgment and righteousness. I am curious about your world. I’m curious about lunch. What do you think they’re doing? Why are they doing this?

Reena Ninan:

So you’re saying to me, first empathize, tell ’em it sucks and then ask them what do you make of it? And let them do the talking.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Let them do the talking. Okay. So getting accomplished here, first of all, you’re basically saying, I can hear things that I don’t want to hear and not push you and the topic away. I can be as I will sometimes say, anthropologically curious about what this is about. I don’t like it that’s been established, but I’m interested because it’s your life and it’s your world and you’re having to navigate it. The other thing you’re doing, and this, I can’t really overstate the importance of it, you’re not dismissing those kids’ wholesale. You’re not saying what is the matter with those kids? They sound horrible, right? They’re what? Terrible children. I don’t like doing this under any conditions because these are kids. These are other people’s kids. Our kids are hardly

Reena Ninan:

Perfect, fine. And I won’t admit if I’ve ever said anything about that and that I’m a wrong path, but we’ll continue on,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

We’ll continue. Well, sometimes we do have opinions about other people’s kid, but you’re also making it clear to your son, you’re leaving open, you’re leaving open to the kid you’re talking with, that these guys are being jerks at launch. Yeah, there’s a dynamic here that’s not so great and hopefully is quite time limited, but there’s still people who are motivated. It’s a good point. And we want to think about, well, what’s the motivation? Why would somebody do that? You’re also making it clear that not if your kid does something dumb or unkind, but when your kid does something dumb or unkind, you will see him as a whole and worthy person who had a very bad moment. That’s great point. But there is more to it and it can be understood and you can come at it not just with judgment and punishment, but also curiosity.

Reena Ninan:

Well, something else I worry about, Lisa is at this point for boys and girls too, quite frankly, but boys more so I think they tend to be more quieter about what they share. They’re not always, at least, I guess I shouldn’t make broad generalizations about this, but I just sort of feel like it’s harder to get things out of boys sometimes than it is girls. So this could all be happening and I wouldn’t even know about it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

The data are on your side

Reena Ninan:

Really. Okay.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah, and actually it’s part of why it’s interesting. There’s that phrase mean girls.

Reena Ninan:

Yes. And

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yet when we look at the data, boys are at least as mean at as girls in terms of what we call relational aggression versus physical aggression, and they’re more physically aggressive. So pound for pound boys are actually more aggressive than girls, but girls talk about it

Reena Ninan:

More interesting.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

So what we know is that when they’re upset, girls are more likely to discuss what’s wrong, whereas boys are more likely to distract themselves. So it’s very likely that a kid who’s at a very rough go at lunch is going to come home and hop on Fortnite and be like, I’m going to play this until the dies down. The parent never has any idea what’s going on. And there’s two problems here. One is the kid is suffering alone. That’s right. Having to manage the feeling alone. And the other is it’s lending this reputation. The girls are doing all the meanness, not necessarily.

Reena Ninan:

It’s

Dr. Lisa Damour:

That it gets discussed. And so then it comes to the awareness of adults and then girls are perceived as being quite mean, whereas boys are doing, I mean, not that we want a winner here, but it’s just in terms of how this works. So thinking about it and thinking about a parent who may have a kid in this age range, right? Couple ideas. One is listen to this episode with your kid. Just be like, I heard this

Thought you’d be interested. They never have to have a conversation about whether or not they’re having that experience themselves. Another option is you when the kid comes home and be like, so I was listening to this podcast and they were talking about about boys with their friends. I’m using finger quotes, being really hard on one another and doing this kind of mean teasing. That’s like their social banter. Is that a thing? Is that something you’re seeing at your school? Open it up. Kids are so ready for, especially teenagers are so ready for adults to come in with criticism and judgment about how they live and what’s going on in their lives that they just shut down really fast. If we make it clear, we’re curious. You get a lot

Reena Ninan:

More, you made an interesting distinction, which I didn’t realize when we started this episode, which was the trash talking might not necessarily be bullying, but it can still be hurtful and it can still really be painful and not make you want to go to school and not make you want to interact with these people, but you’re kind of forced to do it because it’s not good if you go the other way. What’s your advice to boys who find themselves in this situation where they want to save face but they can’t push back?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

They can’t push

Reena Ninan:

Back. They can’t because just like you were saying earlier, if you push back, it’s just not

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Right. Yeah. So they can’t be like, Hey, that’s mean. Totally. That. I mean, and I think there are some kids who probably could do it who maybe have enough social capital,

And honestly, it’s probably some of the bigger boys, more athletic boys who may be like, you know what, guys? Cut it out. I think there are some boys who could do that, and if they can, I think they should. If you can’t say anything, I think the goal is to just try to look like it. I mean, just to try not to be provoked. I think there’s another question though, and I really feel for this mom and this kid where the boy feels compelled to participate as a way to stay safe in it, to say No F you back, and then now you’ve got your kid telling another kid to F off. Totally. None of us feel good about that, and

Reena Ninan:

So is there a way to prevent that? That’s what I’m trying to think through. How could we arm boys with something that nips it in the bud without them having to be like, oh, I stood up. Because like you said, you’re going through puberty at different levels, and so you might not be that big kid who can say something or has a social capital, but you also don’t want to be part of it.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

You don’t want to be part of it. I think that that’s the kid who’s going to have to become very adept at changing the subject. Just being like, Hey guys, did you see

Reena Ninan:

And see how that,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Whatever, fill in the blank. But I’m thinking again, Reina, I’m thinking about a kid who, for whom this is painful, who I’m saying his job is to try not to look too provoked, which feels like a tall order for a kid who’s in a lot of pain. I do think there may be a place where if that is coming home where the kid’s like, this sucks or I was crying and then they came down on me further, I think there is a time to say to that kid, where are the adults? Where are the adults when this is going on? And see, just start down that road because it’s some level, if this is out of control, the adults must do something. Even if it’s that they just join those kids for lunch, the kids will be like, why are you here? And they’ll be like, we all know why I’m here.

Reena Ninan:

My child would never go to school the next day if I showed up for lunch.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Well, no, the adult meeting, I mean talking about the adult at school. Oh, the adult at

Reena Ninan:

School,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Yeah. Just is suddenly sitting much closer to that table.

Reena Ninan:

Oh, I see.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

But I would first work through the kid. If a kid is coming home saying, this is bad and I am in pain about it and I am tired of trying to not get provoked or I am getting provoked, I think then say, where are the adults? Is there an adult who you could recruit to just be closer to you when this is happening? I think in those moments, it’s very tempting as a parent to pick up the phone and start calling the adults at school. I would not do that as the first step because your kid may really be sorry. They said anything at home. If you make a very rapid phone call to the school about

Reena Ninan:

It, and I love that you said that. They grow out of it. As painful as it can feel going through it, this too will pass.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

It will, it will. And I think we can reassure kids. And so then that gets to the third thing I have to say in the helping but not fixing. We as adults can lend perspective. This is a giant gift we give, especially to tweens and teens who lose it so readily because of the neurological space they’re in. So for us to say, oh, this is the worst. I know exactly what you’re talking about. I saw your older brother go through this. It totally stinks. Good news, kiddo. 10th grade, you’re going to be seeing the tail end of that. I know that that feels forever, but I promise you this does not go on forever. That is also useful to kids. That helps them with standard over time.

Reena Ninan:

Well, thank you. Lisa, what do you have for us for parenting to go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I want to go back to that reality check thing. When kids come and tell us about stuff that’s happening, occasionally they will come the way. I presume this boy came to his mama like, mom, this is awful. I don’t like it. Usually in my experience when kids want a reality check, they present it very neutrally. They’re like, yeah, so Billy said, F you at lunch. And I said, F you back to him in this way. Because they’re trying not to lead the witness. They want our real impression, and it’s very hard to respond when a kid neutrally drops a bomb in front of you like we’re saying F you all day at lunch or so-and-so had weed, gummies, whatever. If you can, in that moment when you can feel yourself absolutely activating, I think the best thing to say is, what do you think of that?

Reena Ninan:

Throw it back at

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Them. Throw it. Just give it a minute. Ask their impression. Even in saying the words, what do you think of that? You’re already giving them what they came looking for, which is like, okay, this is worth a conversation because they’re asking me what I think. So this is not in the normal course of events. That would be my advice. Sometimes hard to pull off if you overreact or underreact, you can come back later and be like, I overreacted or I underacted. What I really should have asked is, what did you think of that?

Reena Ninan:

And for those of us parents who constantly overreacted, we thank you. We thank you. I am in the overreact category.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Oh, Rena, I have two teenagers in. I have done my

Reena Ninan:

Overreacting. Oh yes, I have. I love it. Well, next week we’re going to talk about is it possible to change your entitled teen? I’ll see you next week. I’ll see you next

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Week.