ENCORE: How Do I Raise a Compassionate Child? With Dr. Traci Baxley

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Reena Ninan:

Episode 195, an encore episode. How do I Raise a Compassionate Child? with special guest, Dr. Traci Baxley. 

Today we’re revisiting one of the most powerful conversations we’ve had. It’s with Dr. Traci Baxley, the author of Social Justice Parenting, how to Raise Compassionate Anti-Racist Justed Minded Kids In an Unjust World. Research keeps showing us that compassion is one of the strongest predictors of emotional resilience and success even in this hypercompetitive world. A 2023 study from the Journal of Positive Psychology found that kids who engage in acts of kindness report greater life satisfaction and higher academic motivation. That suggests that compassion isn’t just a nice to have skill, it’s really essential for thriving, but how do we teach it? 

Dr. Baxley helps us dive into what compassion, empathy, and kindness really mean and why they’re not the same. She also guides us on how to foster those qualities between siblings and how to balance raising compassionate kids with preparing them for a competitive world. So join us now for Encore, Episode 195. How Do I Raise a Compassionate Child with Special Guest, Dr. Traci Baxley. 

You know what I’ve wondered? What is it in adults who don’t have compassion that maybe their mama could have taught ’em that could have made a difference? That’s my pressing question. I want to know today.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

You do wonder, right, when somebody just seems to have so little trust in humanity and willing to expand themselves towards it, you think what went wrong along the way? Exactly how could that have been redirected at some point earlier in development than when I’m meeting you, this currently unkind adult?

Reena Ninan:

We’re going to get an answer to that question today. I hope. 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

It’s a really important question.

Reena Ninan:

Right? I’ve wondered this for quite some time. 

Super excited to welcome our guest, Dr. Traci Baxley. She’s a professor, consultant, speaker, and also a mother to five children. She’s the author of Social Justice Parenting, How to Raise Compassionate Anti-Racist Justice Minded Kids in an Unjust World. I love that title. She’s dedicated to supporting families, schools, and organizations in developing their own inclusive practices that lead to meaningful relationships with a sense of belonging. And Traci is using her experiences and her expertise to support parents through the highs and lows of raising compassionate and independent children in today’s complex world. Traci, welcome.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure actually.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

We’re delighted to have you and Traci, I got to read your book before everybody else did, and I had the honor of blurbing it, and so I’m just so glad you’re joining us today. It’s such a smart book. There’s so much wisdom in it, and we’re so glad you’re willing to think with us and our Ask Lisa listeners about all of your good thinking. And we have collected a whole bunch of questions from our listeners just for you.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Oh, awesome. It feels like full circle for the three of us really. 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

It does. It does. It’s wonderful.

But first, Traci, we just have a few questions based on your book, which we both enjoyed so much. What does raising a compassionate kid in the world today look like to you?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Well, I think first of all, it starts with examples, right? Of how we’re living our own lives. And I think one of the things that is the most important to me as a mom, and I think it’s also one of my greatest challenges, is the idea of self-compassion. So I think our children seeing us show compassion to ourselves, showing forgiveness to ourselves, I think when it starts in ourselves, and it’s easier to see how it can expand out into the world. So I think the way that we model, the way that we talk in our own homes, the way that we self-talk really teaches our children how to treat themselves. I think the idea of teaching our children self-compassion at home and modeling that really teaches them how to expand that out into the world.

Reena Ninan:

It’s so interesting. I never would’ve thought of self-compassion as your first step in teaching kids compassion. That’s so interesting. What’s the difference between let’s say compassion and kindness and empathy?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Oh, that’s such a great question because they’re often used interchangeably, and empathy is really when you are feeling somebody’s suffering. So that initial feeling that you recognize that somebody else is suffering, hurting, and then compassion is when that noticing changes to relieving. So I have this urgency, this wish, this desire to then relieve somebody else’s suffering. And then I see kindness as the action part, so the actual doing of putting compassion in action.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

So I love that it’s sort of like it’s the 1, 2, 3 steps, empathy leads to compassion, which is then enacted in kindness and the behaviors of kindness. That’s such a beautiful, clear and yet completely fresh to me way to break it all down. In your book, you talk openly about the dynamics in your family where you and your husband who is white are raising five children. Why focus on social justice? Why should parents be concerned about this? How does what you live at home play out in the work you do for the world?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Yeah, I think it all starts at home. I always talk about the idea that activism really starts at home. It starts in your own house. It starts with the way that you show up with your children, with your spouse, with your partner. And I think because my family has this diverse cultural experience, my husband and I grew up the same in a lot of ways, but very different in terms of our racial awareness. And I think it’s really important that I have the conversations with my children coming from the space of being a black woman and my black experience and lived experience. But I think it’s also important that my children know what it’s like for my husband to have grown up in a racialized world and what those same experiences and how the perspective and how different they were for him. And so I think it’s important no matter what our backgrounds are in our homes, that we’re having those kinds of conversations, if we’re really trying to raise children who are empathetic, kind, and compassionate, because it’s the moment of seeing other people and believing their lived experiences that we really get to move our children from just empathy to really starting to take action out in the world.

Reena Ninan:

Traci, this concept of social justice is so polarizing in today’s world. I mean, it can really be misconstrued in the current political and social environment. How do you help kids develop compassion for people who do not see the world through their same eyes?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Yeah, it’s amazing how that word has become such a trigger word in politics today. But really when I talk to kids about social justice, it really is everybody who’s hungry has food, right? Everybody who needs an opportunity for employment, they have that opportunity. Everybody who needs shelter has shelter. It really is about how do we make sure that everybody has their basic needs met and they have opportunities to grow and opportunities to become their best selves? And that’s really all social justice is it’s really about how do we create equity so that everybody has the opportunity to live their best lives. I don’t know how we got to the place where it’s so weaponized and so polarized, and it seems like it’s such an easy phrase or concept that we can all rally around is making sure that we all as human beings have those basic needs met.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

That’s so helpful. And it is kind of remarkable how something that when you describe it, the way you describe it is so clear as the right thing to do, just the right thing to do as a member of any group or any culture,

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Just being a member of the human race that we should want those things for each other.

Reena Ninan:

Well, Dr. Baxley, we have a ton of questions for you from our listeners that we want to take up, but we’re going to pause, take a quick break, and after the break we’re going to have those questions you’re listening to Ask Lisa, the Psychology of parenting. 

Welcome back to Ask Lisa, the psychology of parenting. We’re joined by special guest Dr. Traci Baxley, who’s helping us understand how do we instill compassion in our kids, what really works.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

All right, here we go. We got phenomenal questions. Our listeners are so thoughtful and they share such wonderful and real and detailed thoughts and questions with us. So here’s the first, how do I initiate a practice of serving/volunteering? My kids are 11 and 13 and I am embracing for some serious pushback.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

I think sometimes when we want to impose our will on our children, it doesn’t work very well. 

And I think that’s when you kind of have these kind of family meetings around what’s important to you as families. I think it’s really important that as families, we create these core values the things that are important and how do they look in real life? What does that look like on a daily basis to enact and to act on those core values? And 10 and 11 year olds have real ideas of what is true for them, what they’re passionate about. And I think doing more listening and less pushing is really important because what’s important to them, what they find their passions in can be very different from what yours are. So I think agreeing our core value is about giving back and helping what that looks like. Let’s have some wiggle room around that. That could be something that’s more fluid and getting them to have some say into what that looks like for our family based on what they’re interested in and what’s important to them.

Reena Ninan:

Why is getting kids to volunteer so important? We’ve got this question from a listener who asks, how do I get my kids to not be so self-centered? And I’m wondering, are these two questions kind of linked?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

They are very linked. I think the more that our children are out in the, and this is, I’m going to kind of go backwards for a second. I talk a lot about the importance of having these hard conversations with our children early, right? Not sheltering them, not creating a bubble around them to separate them from what’s going on in the real world. And the more that they can have access to the real world issues, the more that they can grow their capacity for empathy and compassion. So I think this idea of leaning into what’s going on in the world is the first step to that. And then the second thing is the more opportunities they have to serve other people, the less that they are more entrenched about what’s going on with them. They get to see, and this is another polarizing word right now, they get to see their privileges for what they are, whether it’s race, whether it’s socioeconomic, whether it’s age, religion, whatever those privileges are, they get to see how they can use those privileges in a way that are tools for change, right?

Tools for action versus the way we’re using it now often is this idea of weaponizing it. But the more opportunities they have to see the perspective of other people and do for other people, I think the more it builds their capacity to be less self-serving and more about how they can help other people. And there’s the research shows that when we see or are involved in acts of kindness, it grows our spirit for more of that. So the more we see and do really the more our kids are able to feel what it’s like to do for other people physiologically.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I love that. And I also love that idea of privileges about the capacity to be of service to others, to offer something to others. And just thinking about, I love how you mentioned the research and what you’re reminding me of is incredible research about the value. And I think you’re gesturing at this of kids feeling like someone’s counting on them, that there’s someone out there who needs them or needs them to contribute in a meaningful way. And you’re absolutely right. It’s so well established in the literature that this is incredibly valuable for kids in all of these really, really powerful ways.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

There is so much beautiful work out in the world about the scientific benefits of teaching our kids compassion. It really does. The studies show that kids who are compassionate can build relationships with their peers better. They are more likely to have positive social interactions with their classmates. Literally, their heart rate slows down and the happy hormone is secreted more readily when they show compassion. It leads to more feelings of happiness, longer living. Their lives are extended when they show compassion. So it really does have a lot of physical and mental health benefits as our kids become more compassionate.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I love it. Okay. You mentioned social relationships, and one question that we got in multiple versions is it’s all well and good. I’m sort of summarizing here until the kid you’re trying to socialize with is super annoying. So to sum up the question, in a gentler fashion, how do you balance being a good friend with taking care of yourself? How do you manage hangouts and inclusivity? And sometimes dealing with a kid who’s challenging,

Dr. Traci Baxley:

This is something that I struggle, not struggle with, but these are conversations that I’ve had with my children when they were younger because I have a couple kids who are empaths and they take on everybody’s issue. They want to be everybody’s friends, they want to be the fixer. And it was really important to have the conversation with my children about being compassionate and having boundaries. So really being able to hold both spaces at the same time. And so really, I think roleplaying with our children about what does it look like to be compassionate, but what does that look like when your boundaries have been crossed, right? If the child who’s bullying you in some way, when you’re compassionate, consistently being rude, consistently showing up for you in a way that makes you feel not good about yourself or not happy. So what does that look like to hold boundaries around that and recognize that you can be both compassionate, but hold your boundaries so that it’s not infringing on your own mental health or physical health. Really,

Reena Ninan:

Traci, that’s a great question. One of our listeners also wrote in asking, how do I teach my kids to be kind and compassionate and nice to people, but also to stand up for themselves and be assertive?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

And I think that goes with teaching ’em how to hold boundaries, especially with younger children. I am a big proponent of role playing, creating these scenarios, and I call it back pocket talk, so that our kids are ready when certain things happen. They don’t have to think in the moment. I know all of us as adults when we’re in certain situations and when that situation has passed, we’re like, oh, man, I should have said, I wish I had thought to say if I had to do that again this is what I would say. Really equipping our kids with back pocket talk, so that when certain situations arise, they already know what to say and that they don’t have to think about it. I think showing our children how to do that, how to say things in a way that it’s compassionate, but it’s also very firm because I think it’s important for us to be able to use our words strongly, but use them still with compassion.

What does that look like? How are we actively listening with care? How are we being mindful of our tone and what our tone means? I always say to my kids, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. So you can say, for instance, “no” in a way that’s very kind, or you could say no in a way that is kind and firm. So really thinking about how we choose our words, how we show empathy with our words, but how we use them in a way that shows that we’ve created boundaries is really important that we are roleplaying teaching our kids, giving them a language around that so that they feel empowered with their words.

Reena Ninan:

Back pocket talk. I like that, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I do. Traci, do you have any greatest lines, greatest hits, phrases that you have used or that you’ve helped your kids have on hand?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Well, a lot of the things happened during the 2020 election where my kids were really struggling with some of the conversations they were having with children and honestly that they were having with adults too. So there became a big division about whose side you’re on really during the 2020 election. And I also got a lot of that question from a lot of parents who have grandparents or aunts or uncles of their children who politically were in different places. And so a lot of the things that I would say to them is to tell their kids to listen, actively listen. Because people sometimes just want to be heard. And so you say to them, I will listen to what you have to say, and then when you’re done, I want to tell you what I’m thinking. So you have the conversation where you are saying, I’m listening, right?

I hear what you’re saying and I respect what you’re saying, and I want to hear your voice. And then you give your children the opportunity or you give the adult the opportunity to then say what they need to say. Sometimes when you have those conversations and those conversations almost feel like a personal attack, then you give your children the language to say, I respect what you’re saying, but what you’re saying to me is offensive to me, or It doesn’t feel good to me inside, and I’m going to choose to walk away, or I’m going to choose to know that we won’t agree on this, and that’s okay, but we can still be friends. So giving them the language to say, that’s not okay with me. I hear you and I respect that you have a voice on this, but I’m not good with that. It doesn’t feel right for me, and I’m going to excuse myself from this space or this conversation, or I’m going to hold boundaries around our friendship. Because sometimes it isn’t a place where the compassion, the biggest part of the compassion of that moment is self-compassion, and sometimes that means you have to exit relationships in doing.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

That’s incredibly powerful. And it’s just interesting to think about how we’re trying to coach kids to do something that adults themselves are struggling with. So much. And the kids are watching adults struggle with in the news or in public space. And one of the things that’s come up a lot post pandemic is kids are coming back to school with very rusty at best and often extremely rough social skills, and I’m thinking all the time, but also look at the interactions around them. Look at what they see unfolds in the discourse for adults. So what you just offered us really feels like a timeless model of dignified self-protection without actually being unkind to the other person and just trying to really protect oneself while also being respectful of everybody else.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

And you know what? I think what we do a lot of times is we don’t give children permission to be able to do that, to trust their gut. I always tell my kids, when your heart and your gut disagree, go with your gut. Because when kids are young and they don’t want to hug “Aunt Bertha”, we always say, you hug her. She’s your aunt. Go hug her. And we’re teaching our kids not to listen to those boundaries that their bodies naturally want to set for themselves. And so I think this idea of us teaching compassion, we also have to set boundaries around how to get our children to still feel like they can create those boundaries safely for themselves and trust themselves and creating those boundaries.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

So what about when it all comes home? Here was something that came up actually in many, many different versions. So we’re going to give you one, which is how do you teach siblings to be compassionate towards each other, right? All well and good with Aunt Bertha, who you might not see for a year, but the kid who shares your bedroom, or at least just trying to play with all your toys. How do we teach compassion in those relationships?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Again, it has to be modeled, right? It has to come from you when they are doing something that shows compassion. Let’s talk that up, right? Let’s not let that go on unseen and unheard. So I mean, my kids are all teenagers or young adults now, and when I do it now, they think, okay, okay, okay, mom, don’t ruin the moment. But I still do it when I see them reaching out. When my daughter’s, the oldest, when she reaches out to her brother, who’s also in college, just to check on him, it makes my heart so full. And I say, oh my God, you’re making my day knowing that you’ve reached out to your brother without me having to say, check on your brother. And so I think as parents, we have to kind of build those moments up to make them big deals so our children know that that is the behavior that we are seeking, that is the behavior that aligns with our core values.

And then when those actions are not happening, then we have to think about why is that? And I think a lot of it, especially when they’re young, is have we taught our children to tap into what these emotions are? Have we taught them how to own these emotions, to talk about them? Not just compassion, but just in general? Do we talk about what it’s like to feel, I know Mark Bracket’s books, Permission to Feel is such a great book on teaching kids to go beyond angry, sad, happy. What are those nuances or feelings? And so when they start to feel the idea of what it feels like to have empathy and compassion, they’ve already tapped into these emotions in a lot of different ways so that these emotions feel kind of normalized in a lot of ways. But I think the idea of really teaching kids what emotions feel like asking them about their emotions is really important.

And I also think it’s that idea of saying to your children, are you sad? Are you angry? Could be dangerous, right? Because then that begins to define who they are. So it’s really, I mean, it’s a slight twist, but this idea of saying, are you feeling frustrated? Are you feeling angry so that they know that those feelings are not tied to them, but that it’s something that kind of comes and goes. So I think really having overt conversations about emotions and feelings is really important for them to begin to tap in to what empathy and compassion feels like. Because when you’re having those conversations about feelings, then they start to feel like there’s some compassion coming from you and asking them what they’re feeling and why they’re feeling those ways as well,

Reena Ninan:

Is teaching compassion to a 3-year-old different than teaching it to a 13-year-old.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

I think it is because I think it’s the language that you use to unpack those feelings. For a 3-year-old, I would say something like, it looks like you’re feeling sad. Tell me why you think you’re feeling sad. And maybe explain to them why they look like they’re feeling sad. You’re holding your head down the way that you’re looking at me with your eyes, and I know mommy just told you no, that you couldn’t stay up later, or that you couldn’t have that ice cream. And is that how you’re feeling? Is sad, a good feeling to describe what it is that the emotion that you’re having right now. So talking to them about what that sadness looks like for you and asking them if your feelings are correct and feeling that. I think it’s still important that we ask our teenagers how they feel too. But it may look a little different.

It may be, it seems that looks like something’s going on with you. What are you feeling right now? What does that feel like for you and your body? What does that look like for you? Tell me what that is. Why do you think you’re feeling that way? So helping them to be more problem solvers in that than doing the more of the explaining. So I think it is tapping the same as tapping into those feelings, but the way that you ask them, it may be looking a little different. But I also want to say too, when you’re dealing with teens and compassion, and I’m going to go back to this idea of self-compassion, I think teens really, they’re in a state where they’re more prone to the self-criticism and the self-blame. And I think it’s really important that we teach them to really tap into and zoom into what happens when they don’t have self-compassion, and how do they start to build that self-compassion? Because I think that will go a long way for them to navigate through those teen years. And then to be able to use that idea of compassion when it’s attached to other people,

Dr. Lisa Damour:

It’s just gorgeous. I mean, what I think I hear you saying, Traci, is first we have to be incredibly compassionate with our kids. That helps them to be compassionate with themselves, and then they are positioned to be compassionate with other people, but it’s got to go that order.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

yes.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Yes. Very well said. Good summary.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

No, I love it. No, but I mean, you’re just bringing to the front stuff that swirls all around us. And just to lay it out the way you do, I don’t know, I’m just sort of like, my neurons are on fire, I am,

Reena Ninan:

Neurons are on fire. Is that a psychological, like a psychology term, the two of you bounce around?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Probably, but it’s sure. A total perversion of actual neuroscience. Okay. Traci, let’s talk about the limits of compassion where it may not always be easy to summon or know what to do with. We got this question from a listener. 

How do I help my kids be kind to someone who needs a friend but is not a good friend? I know, right? We get good questions.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

I know that is a tough one. And I think it goes back to language. You can have modeling, roleplaying with your children, the language to use when that’s happening, using “I” language. I feel that I am a good friend to you. These are the things that I do that I think demonstrate my friendship to you. I would love those things in return. These are the things that I define as a good friend. Can you talk to me about how you are reciprocating or this friendship is mutual? I don’t know the age of that person, but I think middle school through high school is a great conversation for friends to have. What does our friendship mean to you? This is what it means to me. This is the way that I want to show up for you. Does that work for you? How do you feel about the way I’m showing up for you?

These are the things that I need in this friendship as well, right? Again, so it’s about the language and it’s also about creating boundaries. Maybe this is a relationship that no longer serves me. People are in our lives for reasons and seasons, and maybe this is a relationship that no longer serves me in some way. And so having those conversations with our kids about having to end relationships that no longer serve us is really important because I think in friendships and relationships, our kids sometimes, especially our kids who are empaths or who are very over compassionate, they can say in things that no longer serve them. And again, it’s about am I having self compassion by staying in a relationship where I don’t feel good about myself at the end of it? So I think having conversations about what is friendship to you, what does that look like? Here is what I offer as a friend for you. What do you think you offer for me as a friendship? And then having the conversation about does this still serve us both? What adjustments can we make to make sure this friendship is a loving, safe friendship for both of us? And if that’s something that can happen, maybe the boundaries are that we’re distant friends.

Reena Ninan:

Wow. I mean, I can’t imagine ever, even with adult having that conversation, it’s so hard. But teaching kids at a young age, I think that’s so great. So before we go, Traci, I got to ask you this last question. Somebody posed this to us and they wanted to know, are compassionate kids really better off in this hyper competitive world?

Dr. Traci Baxley:

I think they are, because I think it’s what is needed, right? I think if we want to create the world that we want our children to live in, I think compassionate has to be a part of that. The science, going back to the science, the science shows that when you are a compassionate person, all of these things, including being in an environment that’s competitive, you bring a different energy to that environment. I think that serves everybody in it. Again, and I know I said this over and over, we do want to teach our kids boundaries around those things, but I think compassion is really the foundation for creating the world that we want our children to live in.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Oh, Traci, thank you so much for joining us and also for the really incredible work that you’re doing. We’re just so glad to spend some time with you.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Thank you so much for having me.

Reena Ninan:

Dr. Traci Baxley. The book is called Social Justice Parenting, How to Raise Compassionate Anti-Racist, Justice Minded Kids in An Unjust World. 

We’re going to post the link to her book in our show notes if you’re interested. Dr. Baxley, grateful you could join us.

Dr. Traci Baxley:

Thank you so much.

Reena Ninan:

What a great conversation. I love what she says about how the science that is behind compassion and why it’s so important to teach your kids.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I do too. And you know, Reena, how I love when we can bring the research to inform how we live our family life. It’s my favorite thing.

Reena Ninan:

Absolutely. I know you love it. So what do you have first, Lisa, for Parenting To Go?

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I loved all of the language that Dr. Baxley provided in terms of how to talk with kids and also how to coach them in terms of having back pocket phrases. And this is something I’ve absolutely done a lot, both as a psychologist, and also as a parent. I’m going to throw in a little twist that I have found works to help kids be open to all of that language is I will usually say something like, okay, this is my 52-year-old version of how to say this thing. You’ll figure out how to make it your 12-year-old version. But here are the ideas. Because I’ve sometimes watched kids get hung up on the like, I’m not going to say that. And very rarely in their interactions, are they going to use the exact language that we would come up with in our kitchen. So you can get them over that hump saying, this is my version. What would your version sound like? And that can actually help really put it into action in the moment.

Reena Ninan:

Hearing her say about the role playing, which is what you’re also talking about too, is practicing that you’re setting ’em up for success because they’ve had a round at it before they actually have to come face to face.

Dr. Lisa Damour:

Absolutely. Right. I’ve been with parents who will sometimes say, why can’t my kids say to the kid who just said to them, your shoes are ugly. Why can’t they say “you shouldn’t talk to me that way? That’s not cool.” And I’ve said to them, okay, but if somebody stopped you on the street and said something like, would you be ready with that language? It’s very hard to do. It’s very hard to do. So I think practice, practice, practice, and then make room for kids to make it their own.

Reena Ninan:

Sounds great. Wow. I really enjoyed having her on. Dr. Traci Baxley. 

Lisa, I want to thank you. And next week we’re going to have a special guest, Dawn, talking to us about how to raise a compassionate child. Dr. Traci Baxley will join us. I’ll see you next week. 

Dr. Lisa Damour:

I’ll see you next week.